JCraver
Sawhorse
T-Bird- Did you get an answer/plan review comments back from your local AHJ yet?
Oh come on now. No they wouldn't. You'd just permit them as dwelling units.If we based decisions on what is possible and or likely, garages would be outlawed in Southern California.
Not yet, he said early next week.T-Bird- Did you get an answer/plan review comments back from your local AHJ yet?
Not yet, he said early next week.
I've reread and rethought this thread, and see now where T-Bird is coming from.
I had to think about the fact that the garage is truly a part of that basement. The requirement for the EERO's does not say where in the basement, just that it has to be in the basement.
If there were no partition walls in that basement, and the required separation was via the ceiling and egress stair, then where is the EERO?? In the garage.
If you had a den, a sewing room, and an office in a basement........the required EERO could be in any of them, or perhaps in a living room, so the intervening room argument does not fly, regardless of the fact that it does not say that in that section.
I did submit this to ICC for an opinion, see what they come back with.
I've reread and rethought this thread, and see now where T-Bird is coming from.
I had to think about the fact that the garage is truly a part of that basement. The requirement for the EERO's does not say where in the basement, just that it has to be in the basement.
If there were no partition walls in that basement, and the required separation was via the ceiling and egress stair, then where is the EERO?? In the garage.
If you had a den, a sewing room, and an office in a basement........the required EERO could be in any of them, or perhaps in a living room, so the intervening room argument does not fly, regardless of the fact that it does not say that in that section.
I did submit this to ICC for an opinion, see what they come back with.
They did not get into the weeds
Yes I am the one doing the review on T-Birds project. I did get a different response back from ICC. Here is the response
R: Section R310.1 of the 2015 International Residential Code
Q. Can the emergency escape and rescue opening serving a basement be located in a garage?
A. No. Where an emergency escape and rescue opening is required, Section R310.1 literally requires access directly into a public way or to a yard or court directly from the basement area. While not expressly indicated, the code never intended for occupants to traverse through a garage to access an emergency escape and rescue opening.
While adequate egress from the basement is provided via the unenclosed stair, this does not negate the requirement for an emergency escape and rescue opening for the basement. Admittedly, based on the submitted sketch, the basement is essentially a mechanical, storage space bounded on three sides by a crawl space. As such, while it may be unlikely that the basement area could be converted to a sleeping area, an emergency escape and rescue opening is literally required unless alternatively approved by the code official.
Code opinions issued by ICC staff are based on ICC-published codes and do not include local, state or federal codes, policies or amendments. This opinion is based on the information which you have provided. We have made no independent effort to verify the accuracy of this information nor have we conducted a review beyond the scope of your question. This opinion does not imply approval of an equivalency, specific product, specific design, or specific installation and cannot be published in any form implying such approval by the International Code Council. As this opinion is only advisory, the final decision is the responsibility of the designated authority charged with the administration and enforcement of this code.
“Copyright © 2017 International Code Council, Inc. All rights reserved.”
I am not going to allow T-Bird to use the EERO in the garage. I had another project like this last year same as T-Birds except in addition to the mechanical room and storage, they has a 316 square foot theater room also a 290 square foot multi purpose room. Where do you draw the line as the basements keep getting bigger trying to use the garage for the EERO.
Here is my determination on the matter
The garage is accessory use to the dwelling unit. The garage can also be part of the basement. However, there is a required fire separation from the garage to the dwelling unit. This separation is to protect the occupants of the dwelling unit from the hazards associated with garages. The garage has an inherent risk factor due to the occupancy classification. To allow egress access through the garage would increase the risk factors for the residence of the dwelling unit trying to exit. The intent of the code is not to increase risk factors but to reduce risk factors for occupants of the dwelling unit
Allow me to rephrase:So if the basement only contained the garage than what ??
With the eero?
Plus, it would only be used if the stairs were blocked.
Completely agree with you. As a building official, I cannot enforce the "intent" of the code. I can only enforce the code. If the code is not intended to address your construction, let's have a discussion about it.Sol, I for one thank you for posting your thoughts here. Your opinion is certainly well reasoned and defensible. At the end of the day, however, I disagree, keeping in mind that I am an architect and not a code official so my perspective differs.
The statement by the ICC that "the code never intended for occupants to traverse through a garage to access an emergency escape and rescue opening" doesn't really help. How are we supposed to figure that out? All we can go on is what is actually written in the code. If the code really didn't intend for occupants to traverse through a garage for an EERO then it would include similar language that prohibits such access to means of egress. But the code does not include that language in the EERO paragraph.
From my point of view, an EERO access from a basement through a garage certainly provides safety. If there is a fire in the garage there is the actual means of egress up the stairs and out the door; if there is a fire that blocks that means of egress there is the EERO through the garage. I honestly don't understand how that is not a benefit. The code clearly requires both a means of egress and an EERO and your points about future potential uses of the basement are completely reasonable, I suspect that is why the EERO requirement for basements was added to the code. So, I agree that you are completely correct to insist on an EERO in the basement, but if there is not an actual sleeping room I still don't see how the currently written code denies access to that EERO through any part of the basement, even if it is through a garage or other similarly hazardous area. It is after all a means of escape, not an exit. If that is truly the intent of the code it needs to be clarified in the code.
Completely agree with you. As a building official, I cannot enforce the "intent" of the code. I can only enforce the code. If the code is not intended to address your construction, let's have a discussion about it.
Unless it's arson, both paths should not be inaccessible at the same time. The code is not intended to address intentional fires, only accidental. I'm still struggling to understand why two paths are even required. The interpretation from ICC seems to imply that it is required if one of the rooms in the basement is converted into a sleeping room. Would this not be a change of use and reviewed as part of that permit?
The AHJ submitted the plans to the ICC and the verdict is in. I still disagree with the conclusion and would love to discuss this directly with them.
R: Section R310.1 of the 2015 International Residential Code
Q. Can the emergency escape and rescue opening serving a basement be located in a garage?
A. No. Where an emergency escape and rescue opening is required, Section R310.1 literally requires access directly into a public way or to a yard or court directly from the basement area. While not expressly indicated, the code never intended for occupants to traverse through a garage to access an emergency escape and rescue opening.
While adequate egress from the basement is provided via the unenclosed stair, this does not negate the requirement for an emergency escape and rescue opening for the basement. Admittedly, based on the submitted sketch, the basement is essentially a mechanical, storage space bounded on three sides by a crawl space. As such, while it may be unlikely that the basement area could be converted to a sleeping area, an emergency escape and rescue opening is literally required unless alternatively approved by the code official.
I wish I would have saved the question, I thought they usually quote the question in the response.