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emergency escape and garage

Paul Sweet said:
The garage is part of the basement. The so-called "separation" between the garage and rest of the basement is "Not less than 1/2-inch gypsum board or equivalent applied to the garage side" (IRC Table R302.6). This is less than typical interior walls which usually have 1/2" gypsum board on both sides.
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But, it's not. It's accessory to the basement/dwelling area.
 
tmurray said:
Completely agree with you. As a building official, I cannot enforce the "intent" of the code. I can only enforce the code. If the code is not intended to address your construction, let's have a discussion about it.

Unless it's arson, both paths should not be inaccessible at the same time. The code is not intended to address intentional fires, only accidental. I'm still struggling to understand why two paths are even required. The interpretation from ICC seems to imply that it is required if one of the rooms in the basement is converted into a sleeping room. Would this not be a change of use and reviewed as part of that permit?
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How are you (or any AHJ) ever going to know if the use is changed? If TBird builds this house, and then puts a couch and a TV in that room where his stairs are, that's not anything that is going to require a permit. But, that room just became a sleeping room.
 
JCraver said:
How are you (or any AHJ) ever going to know if the use is changed? If TBird builds this house, and then puts a couch and a TV in that room where his stairs are, that's not anything that is going to require a permit. But, that room just became a sleeping room.
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Just like rooms labeled din, storage, office, etc


A bo cannot decide what a room will be used for, except what it is labeled
 
T-Bird: Thanks for the thread, and the lively discussion. I'm sorry it didn't go your way.

I'm not smart enough to write it, but it seems as if we would all benefit were someone to submit a code change for these sections. If it was written better, we wouldn't still be here after ~8 pages.
 
JCraver said:
T-Bird: Thanks for the thread, and the lively discussion. I'm sorry it didn't go your way.

I'm not smart enough to write it, but it seems as if we would all benefit were someone to submit a code change for these sections. If it was written better, we wouldn't still be here after ~8 pages.
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I plan on bringing it to our Code Change Committee for discussion. We've already started meeting for the upcoming cycle, which includes the IBC, which would also have to be cleaned up, in addition to the IRC, and the IFC.
 
JCraver said:
How are you (or any AHJ) ever going to know if the use is changed? If TBird builds this house, and then puts a couch and a TV in that room where his stairs are, that's not anything that is going to require a permit. But, that room just became a sleeping room.
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That's not a room intended for sleeping. A bedroom is a room intended for sleeping. If any room with a couch in it is a room intended for sleeping, every single room is going to require an egress window/door by that logic because I can put a couch in any of them. When a room is converted to a bedroom, a permit is required here. Does everyone pull a permit for it? No. But many do.

JCraver said:
But, it's not. It's accessory to the basement/dwelling area.
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How our code deals with accessory occupancies is that they are part of the major occupancy. For instance a movie theater is an assembly group 1 occupancy (A1), but contains concession areas for the purchase of food and some tables to eat at if someone wishes, which would be an assembly group 2 occupancy (A2). normally, these are required to be divided into their own suites, but understanding that the concession area is dependent on the theater, it becomes accessory to the major A1 use and the requirement of a fire separation disappears. Our code deals with attached garages in much the same way. Where a garage is attached to a single family dwelling which it serves and has a capacity of 5 vehicles or less, it may be considered part of that occupancy. Based on what Paul posted above, there is no real separation required between the garage and the remainder of the dwelling. This makes it very hard to call them two separate suites.

So the theory from ICC is that if someone is sleeping in the basement, there is a likelihood that both the regular egress path up the stairs and the garage are impassable due to fire? If the fire has spread that much already, that person has already died from smoke inhalation.

As a general rule, I don't usually agree with Conarb, but I can see why some builders are frustrated with requirements like this. They don't make sense to me. It's not required in Canada and we don't see a lot of people dieing in basement fires. Is society really that different in the US that there would be such a discrepancy?
 
I already had a plan indicating a "storage room" with an overhead door, the room was large enough for a motorcycle, I made them add 5/8 drywall to the ceiling.
I also reviewed plans that indicated a "office" in the basement with a closet told them put in a EER and a smoke alarm in that room or eliminate the closet..
I also did not let someone install an electrical breaker panel in a small "storage" room that properly would have been used as a clothes closet.
You can't always go by what they call it.
 
Rick18071 said:
I already had a plan indicating a "storage room" with an overhead door, the room was large enough for a motorcycle, I made them add 5/8 drywall to the ceiling.
I also reviewed plans that indicated a "office" in the basement with a closet told them put in a EER and a smoke alarm in that room or eliminate the closet..
I also did not let someone install an electrical breaker panel in a small "storage" room that properly would have been used as a clothes closet.
You can't always go by what they call it.
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So to keep the hits on coming

A room without a closet is not a bedroom,,

Now that would be perfect for my daughter, she keeps her clothes on the floor anyway.
 
OH MY GOD! My brain hurts from reading all of that but I am sorry I need to partially resurrect it.

I have a townhome, middle unit with a basement level that contains a small mechanical room. The only other element is where the stairway comes down from above. The entire rest of the space is one open room with a 2 car garage door opening. My quandary here is what makes the garage a garage, or not part of the garage. If a wall were proposed between the front half with the garage, I would say you have a basement area, and a garage area, which would require a compliant EERO at the non-garage side. But with no wall, is this a basement or is the basement the mechanical room meeting the exception, and the rest a garage not requiring an EERO. I believe that this is a compliant condition, even if I think it is unworkable and impractical for any future finishing of the spaces without finding a way to add an EERO, but as a townhouse it will be incredibly difficult.

If you don't want to read the previous 8 pages, the prior argument is somewhat related, but in that case they were not limited to just a mechanical room that met the exception. I would stipulate here that the garage door does not meet the opening constraints. Hopefully I can post a snippet for your viewing pleasure.
 

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Sifu said:
OH MY GOD! My brain hurts from reading all of that but I am sorry I need to partially resurrect it.

I have a townhome, middle unit with a basement level that contains a small mechanical room. The only other element is where the stairway comes down from above. The entire rest of the space is one open room with a 2 car garage door opening. My quandary here is what makes the garage a garage, or not part of the garage. If a wall were proposed between the front half with the garage, I would say you have a basement area, and a garage area, which would require a compliant EERO at the non-garage side. But with no wall, is this a basement or is the basement the mechanical room meeting the exception, and the rest a garage not requiring an EERO. I believe that this is a compliant condition, even if I think it is unworkable and impractical for any future finishing of the spaces without finding a way to add an EERO, but as a townhouse it will be incredibly difficult.

If you don't want to read the previous 8 pages, the prior argument is somewhat related, but in that case they were not limited to just a mechanical room that met the exception. I would stipulate here that the garage door does not meet the opening constraints. Hopefully I can post a snippet for your viewing pleasure.
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your mechanical room does not meet the requirements of a "habitable room" does that help?
 
T-Bird said:
I have an emergency escape from the basement (the garage door) which leads (unobstucted) to the public way.
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Going from the basement through the garage is not an emergency escape and rescue opening by definition.

R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue opening required.
Basements, habitable attics and every sleeping room shall have not less than one operable emergency escape and rescue opening. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, an emergency escape and rescue opening shall be required in each sleeping room. Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.
 
mtlogcabin said:
Going from the basement through the garage is not an emergency escape and rescue opening by definition.

R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue opening required.
Basements, habitable attics and every sleeping room shall have not less than one operable emergency escape and rescue opening. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, an emergency escape and rescue opening shall be required in each sleeping room. Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.
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I don't see any definition here. Where is it? Basement is not a room it is a level. My garage is a room/space in the basement. The code does not tell me i can't exit through the garage.
 
R311.1 Means of egress. Dwellings shall be provided with a
means of egress in accordance with this section. The means
of egress shall provide a continuous and unobstructed path of
vertical and horizontal egress travel from all portions of the
dwelling to the required egress door without requiring travel
through a garage. The required egress door shall open directly
into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public
way.
 
Yes, I know, it is the exception. I understand the dilemma posed by the original post and thread and I see points from both sides. First, I understand the real question was not one of an EERO opening to the garage, rather from the garage to the outside, I can also see the intent may not be in line with the exact language of the code. My condition is a little different but related and I figured if I looked that something like this had probably already been brought up on the forum...and I was right.
The condition I have is not whether the mechanical room needs an EERO, it doesn't. My question is that I don't think the basement level does since it is intended by the current design as a garage. It is clear garages don't require EERO's, but basements do. So the question as to whether this is a garage, or basement, or a garage in a basement?
 
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