Two doors in a series

[Yikes]

I think what Rick is saying is that there may be no viable turnaround space in a 48" wide hallway...Rick? Which is why I mentioned the 60" hall in post 18...

OK. My comments in post #23 were responding to Rick's post #7, where he asked:

"But what about besides vestibules?
1. Does this code section also need to be for: a bathroom door to a shower or toilet compartment door that are close together. Do they need a turning space between them and at least 48" between the doors?"

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Thank Yikes, Steveray and everyone else. I understand now that ICC/ANSI A117.1 section 404.2.5 is for all spaces including outside, not just for vestibules. And the turn around space does not need to be directly between the two doors in a Series but could be somewhere else in the same space that is between the doors.
A 4' wide corridor with 20 doors would only need one turning space anywhere in the corridor.

 

[steveray]

One more thing that is still allowed to be discriminatory in accessibility...

 

[Mr. Inspector]

One more thing that is still allowed to be discriminatory in accessibility...

What does this mean?

 

[steveray]

The person in the wheelchair needs to go 100' down the hall to turn around or "backup" in some cases...Where everyone else doesn't...

 

[JPohling]

In the condition regarding the lift and the primary entrance I would say yes they need to comply with doors in series as that is how they will be used

 

[Genduct]

ICC/ANSI A117.1 Two doors in a Series. Distance between two hinged or pivoted doors in series shall be 48" Min. plus width of any door swinging into the space. The space between the doors shall provide a turning space complying with Section 304.

Usually i need to check vestibules for this. But does this rule also need to be for a bathroom door to a shower or toilet compartment door that are close together?
Does a door from the top of an exterior accessible lift to an entrance door need to meet this? Plans that I am reviewing show these two doors hitting each other when both are open.
How about doors across from each other in a 3' wide hall?

Rule sounds like it is for hallways and not for a room where a clear, unobstructed path is required

 

[Mr. Inspector]

What makes the rule sound like it's for halls and not for rooms? It does not even say it's only for indoors.

 

[Yikes]

Per the illustration in post #23 from the US Department of Justice, it appears that the implied definition of what makes two doors "in series" is when operation of both doors is the only way to pass through that space to get in and out, without getting stuck between the doors.

To do that, you need to first complete operation (opening and closing) of door #1, then have some method of successfully operating door #2.
In the ADA-compliant hotel room illustration from DOJ (below), you can enter the room, close the entry door behind you, go further into the room, then turn around and go back towards the bathroom. thus the entry door and bathroom door are NOT "in series".

The 48" minimum clearance in 404.2.5 is not about convenience between doors; it's about not getting stuck with zero options in a space between doors.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Per the illustration in post #23 from the US Department of Justice, it appears that the implied definition of what makes two doors "in series" is when operation of both doors is the only way to pass through that space to get in and out, without getting stuck between the doors.

To do that, you need to first complete operation (opening and closing) of door #1, then have some method of successfully operating door #2.
In the ADA-compliant hotel room illustration from DOJ (below), you can enter the room, close the entry door behind you, go further into the room, then turn around and go back towards the bathroom. thus the entry door and bathroom door are NOT "in series".

The 48" minimum clearance in 404.2.5 is not about convenience between doors; it's about not getting stuck with zero options in a space between doors.


View attachment 9601

So by this drawing if a vestibule was the same shape and size as this room and the entry door and the bathroom door were the means of egress this would be ok even when the doors are closer than 48" when open?

 

[Yikes]

So by this drawing if a vestibule was the same shape and size as this room and the entry door and the bathroom door were the means of egress this would be ok even when the doors are closer than 48" when open?

Yes, per IBC 1005.7.1, there are no restrictions on door swing encroachment into the minimum required egress width inside a dwelling or sleeping unit.

If it was a hypothetical nonresidential space, then 1005.7.1 would require at least 1/2 the egress width to be maintained, and that bathroom door would probably also have to be shifted down slightly to allow a 180 degree swing so that its fully open position does not reduce the egress width by more than 7".

In the photo below, should there be 48" between the doors when you travel in from the left door and out through the right?



I would say no, because they are not in series. You enter from the door on the left, come towards the camera while the left door closes behind you; then you turn around and enter the door on the right.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

I would say no, because they are not in series.

I don't agree with your definition of two doors next to each other is not a series. If you use one door then another, you used the doors in a series no matter where the doors are.

 

[mark handler]

I don't agree with your definition of two doors next to each other is not a series. If you use one door then another, you used the doors in a series no matter where the doors are.

It is clear that the ADASAD defines doors in a series by example. Doors next to each other are not doors in a series.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

I don't inspect to ADASAD. I inspect to ICC 117.1 for Accessibility.
Are you saying if doors are not exactly parallel too each other when closed and exactly across from each other in a vestibule, in a hallway, or anywhere else as shown on the drawing, we don't need the 48" between doors or the turning space rule (both rules are in the same section).

 

[Yikes]

It is clear that the ADASAD defines doors in a series by example. Doors next to each other are not doors in a series.

I think the fundamental issue is: what makes two or more doors "in a series"?
(a) It it merely that the doors happen to be 180 degrees directly across from each other? What if the doors are offset/staggered?
(b) Is it the nature of the use behind the doors? Example: A dwelling unit entry door with a coat closet door on the opposite wall require 48" clear between door swings.
(c) Or is it (as I contend) because having doors next to each other enables you to enter the room, close the door behind you, turn around, and use the next door?

If (c), then it supports my thesis that doors are only "in series" when you don't have other circulation/maneuvering options.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

If (c), then it supports my thesis that doors are only "in series" when you don't have other circulation/maneuvering options.

If true the code would say that.

 

[mark handler]

I don't inspect to ADASAD. I inspect to ICC 117.1 for Accessibility.
Are you saying if doors are not exactly parallel too each other when closed and exactly across from each other in a vestibule, in a hallway, or anywhere else as shown on the drawing, we don't need the 48" between doors or the turning space rule (both rules are in the same section).

It is clear that the ANSI 117.1 defines doors in a series by example. Doors next to each other are not doors in a series.

 

[mark handler]

I think the fundamental issue is: what makes two or more doors "in a series"?
(a) It it merely that the doors happen to be 180 degrees directly across from each other? What if the doors are offset/staggered?
(b) Is it the nature of the use behind the doors? Example: A dwelling unit entry door with a coat closet door on the opposite wall require 48" clear between door swings.
(c) Or is it (as I contend) because having doors next to each other enables you to enter the room, close the door behind you, turn around, and use the next door?

If (c), then it supports my thesis that doors are only "in series" when you don't have other circulation/maneuvering options.

(a) If there is a door 90 degrees, and a door 180 degrees and you must use one, they are both in series
(b) Function is not a factor (closet), if you must enter the space, it needs clearances.
(c) Do not understand what you are saying, it appears to be counter to the requirements set forth in the code.

 

[Yikes]

Mark, in your post to Rick you showed illustrations from ANSI 117.1 that are not in the ADA standards. I appreciate these illustrations because they (a) show side walls and (b) show a turnaround.
The enclosing side walls and turnaround make it clear that the defining feature of doors "in series" is that the space Is so small that there is no other path of travel other than either through door # 2 or to turn around and go back out door #1.
‘To put it another way, if (for example) the ANSI illustration had one side wall removed and a 10’x10’ space off to one side, then the 10’x10’ space affords maneuverability, functionality and options other than mere transit from door #1 through door #2. Therefore the doors in that situation are not “in series".

 

[Mr. Inspector]

These drawings shown here that are taken out of the ICC A117.1 code book are not referenced in section 404.2.5 (Two Doors or Gates in Series) or anywhere else in the book. They are not code. So how can you use it to explain what is meant by a series or anything else?.

You are saying if a vestibule has more then 2 doors 404.2.5 does not apply? I seen many vestibules with more then two doors, mostly in movie theaters, malls and big box stores. I see double doors too (two doors in a doorway). I also seen vestibules that have one exterior door but two inside doors that go to two different tenant spaces. Are you saying these vestibules doors would not need to comply with 404.2.5 but only need the door maneuvering clearance if they are accessible with no turn around space or no 4' between doors?

 

[Mr. Inspector]

I just sent this to the ICC for a written opinion, I will post it when I get it:

What does it mean "two doors in a series". Is this for 2 doors or more across from each other or next to each other or 90 degrees from each other in a hall, vestibule, toilet room (entry door and toilet compartment door) or any other room on an accessible route?

 

[Yikes]

Sorry for the crude drawing, but I'd like to ask you all:

1. Are doors A and B "in series"? If so, why?
2. Are doors C and D "in series"? If not, why not?
3. If your answer to #1 is yes and #2 is "no", then how much of an offset is needed for doors on opposite wall to not be considered "in series?



Next:
4. Are doors F and G in series?
5. Are doors F and H in series?
6. Are doors F and J in series?

 

[JPohling]

With the information you have provided, I would say none of the doors are in series.

 

[JPohling]

Well, none of the door combinations you asked about. Doors a,b,c,and d are in series with e in the manner in which they are used