• Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades

Two doors in a series

I agree with JPohling in practice, but putting on my literal reading glasses and ignoring other codes:

My code (Florida Building Code) has the language and graphics mark handler posted in post #37, and the scoping part 404.1 says; "doors, doorways, and gates that are part of an accessible route shall comply with 404." Accessible route is not a defined term (just the accessible part). Accessible Routes 402 also says something similar; all components of an accessible route shall comply with Ch4. And upon a quick skim of Ch2 I'm not finding anything limiting doors in a series to specific situations or excluding them from circulation paths. So, unless I'm missing something, that means doors A & B should be 48" apart, so that there is an accessible route between rooms 3 & 4.
 
Yikes said:
Sorry for the crude drawing, but I'd like to ask you all:

1. Are doors A and B "in series"? If so, why?
2. Are doors C and D "in series"? If not, why not?
3. If your answer to #1 is yes and #2 is "no", then how much of an offset is needed for doors on opposite wall to not be considered "in series?
View attachment 9623


Next:
4. Are doors F and G in series?
5. Are doors F and H in series?
6. Are doors F and J in series?


1664995475581-png.9624
Click to expand...
This conversation is going down a rabbit hole
 
This really is not that difficult. In the first plan that Yikes posted if the areas 2,3,4,5 are individual suites, then like I mentioned none of the doors he asked about are in series. Only each one's individual entry/exit door to those spaces is in series with E. Now if space 1 is a gowning vestibule and 2 and 3 are labs and 4 and 5 are clean rooms then by the nature of how the spaces and doors are used they would be in series.
 
JPohling, you are saying that the nature of the use, not the positions of the doors, is what defines doors as being "in series" or not.
You may be right. But I would posit that the USDOJ image of the hotel room entry door+ bathroom would qualify as “in series" as the bathroom is a related function to the hotel room - - and yet USDOJ has no problem with those doors being so close to each other.
That’s what leads me to believe that have a room that is big enough that it serves as other functions - - even if that function is to simply turn around - - makes the doors no longer "in series".
 
Yikes, Correct. It is how the doors are used, not just the placement. I also do not believe the hotel room entry door and RR door are in series. That is not typically how you use these doors. You may have to take a pee the moment you get your room, but that is not typically how they are used and they are typically placed to access the RR coming from the sleeping area.
 
Suppose I have a corridor 15 feet long, with a door from a private suite on each end. On one side of the corridor are two toilet rooms. There is no intent for an occupant to go through both ends of the corridor. This is a shared access to the toilets. Are the two suite entry doors in series for A117.1 purposes?
 
Jay Smith said:
Suppose I have a corridor 15 feet long, with a door from a private suite on each end. On one side of the corridor are two toilet rooms. There is no intent for an occupant to go through both ends of the corridor. This is a shared access to the toilets. Are the two suite entry doors in series for A117.1 purposes?
Click to expand...

Jay, I'm saying "no", they are not in series.
I would also say if there's a men's restroom and a women's restroom with out swinging doors opposite each other in a 5’ wide hall, those restroom doors are not "in series" (contemporary notions of gender fluidity notwithstanding).

In my earlier posts, I'm taking it a step further, and stating my interpretation that if there is ANY option or ability to use the space other than for just going through the two doors like a vestibule or air lock, and if you have provided the ability to turn a wheelchair around in the space after having closed one of the doors, then I do not consider the doors to be "in series".

I think the ANSI illustrations show an "airlock"/vestibule configuration and THAT's what makes it "in series".
 
Last edited:
Yikes said:
In my earlier posts, I'm taking it a step further, and stating my interpretation that if there is ANY option or ability to use the space other than for just going through the two doors like a vestibule or air lock, and if you have provided the ability to turn a wheelchair around in the space after having closed one of the doors, then I do not consider the doors to be "in series".
Click to expand...
Why wouldn't the code have an exception that says that. So if a vestibule has more than two doors like a large movie theater or a vestibule that is used by two different tenants (3 doors) this code section doesn't apply?
 
I’m saying that the code as published does not have a clear definition of what "in series" means. Unless someone who was on that original code development committee can enlighten us into the background thinking, all we have are the ANSI illustrations, and our interpretation of them.

Mark Handler looks at it, sees two doors opposite each other, and says that’s what makes them "in series": Physical location of the openings relative to each other.
JPhohling looks at it on the basis of use and function. If the intended use of the rooms is sequential, then they are "in series". Under this scenario, if the functions of the rooms change over time, they could go in or out of compliance.
I look at the ANSI illustrations, see the surrounding walls and tight maneuvering space and - especially this - no other option except to travel from one door through the other, and that’s what I think makes the doors "in series".

Maybe one of us is right, or maybe all of us are wrong.
 
Years ago at a seminar shortly after ADA was passed they told us that the intent was to prevent somebody in a wheelchair from being trapped in a vestibule when the door behind them closed and there wasn't adequate space in front of them to open the door in front of them.
 
Paul Sweet said:
Years ago at a seminar shortly after ADA was passed they told us that the intent was to prevent somebody in a wheelchair from being trapped in a vestibule when the door behind them closed and there wasn't adequate space in front of them to open the door in front of them.
Click to expand...
Exactly. If you can enter the space through door #1 and do a full turnaround somewhere in that space, then you aren’t forced to go through door #2 "in series". You have the option to turn around and exit through door #1. You are not trapped.
 
I would think if it is only for vestibules the section would be titled "Vestibules" instead of "2 doors in a series" then we would not be debating this. I would be sure that the all the doors would need to comply to this section not matter if they are directly across from each other or at 90 degrees from each other but not next to each other
But you had 3 doors coming from outside and 2 interior doors would only one outside and one inside need to comply or 2 outside and 2 inside or all of them?
Still waiting for ICC for a written opinion, I will post it when I get it:
 
Another crude example - this time a one-bedroom public housing unit that is required to be ADA accessible.
If I put a closet door across from the unit entry door in the entrance foyer, does that mean that it's "in series" and my foyer needs to be at least 10' deep instead of the usual 5' clearance? Notice I'm still able to freely circulate into the living room, turn around, etc.
10' sounds really excessive to me, like it's an entry hall for a McMansion, not for a one-bedroom public housing unit.
This leads me to believe that the definition of "in series" is more about limited, constrained options for travel that might make a wheelchair user get stuck between the doors, with no other way out.


1665442399293.png
 
Yikes said:
Another crude example - this time a one-bedroom public housing unit that is required to be ADA accessible.
If I put a closet door across from the unit entry door in the entrance foyer, does that mean that it's "in series" and my foyer needs to be at least 10' deep instead of the usual 5' clearance? Notice I'm still able to freely circulate into the living room, turn around, etc.
10' sounds really excessive to me, like it's an entry hall for a McMansion, not for a one-bedroom public housing unit.
This leads me to believe that the definition of "in series" is more about limited, constrained options for travel that might make a wheelchair user get stuck between the doors, with no other way out.


View attachment 9633
Click to expand...

This just makes it more confusing. of course a quick fix is to turn the doors around or a sliding door.
In ICC A117.1 Accessible Units 1102.5 Exception 3 says a turning space between doors in a series as required by section 404.2.5 is not required.
Which seems to say you still need the 4' space between doors. I still wonder if this has to do with vestibules because I never saw one in an apartment.
But then 1102.3.1 says that a turning space is required in each room in the accessible unit except bathrooms and small closets. Isn't a vestibule a room?

I can't find a definition of vestibule in any of the ICC code books so I don't know if it needs to be a enclosed room or if it could be open to other rooms.
 
Last edited:
Yikes said:
Exactly. If you can enter the space through door #1 and do a full turnaround somewhere in that space, then you aren’t forced to go through door #2 "in series". You have the option to turn around and exit through door #1. You are not trapped.
Click to expand...
Not sure if the turn around space can be anywhere in the room, the code says it is to be between the doors. Would a turning space off to the side and not directly between the doors comply?

In my state it's important to get it just right because the inspectors get audited and get written up if a grab bar is a 1/4" off or even if someone hangs a mirror to low in a rest room after the C. O. is issued.
 
Rick18071 said:
Why wouldn't the code have an exception that says that. So if a vestibule has more than two doors like a large movie theater or a vestibule that is used by two different tenants (3 doors) this code section doesn't apply?
Click to expand...
The same reason that the ambulatory stall depth still does not line up with the rest of the stall depths...it is an imperfect system with imperfect people and not enough good ones trying to fix stuff.....
 
I just found this explanation on the US Access Board website.
There are TWO criteria that must be true for a door to be "in series";
1. Opposite each other, AND
2. The only function of the space is to use both door #1 AND door #2, i.e. "travel through BOTH doors is REQUIRED". So if there is a possibility of using the space for any purpose that does not REQUIRE travel through both door #1 and door #2, then the doors are not "in series".

Note that the stated purpose of additional doors in series is to "allow users to clear one door before opening the next". The additional "recommendation" further clarifies that wheelchair clearance is the key purpose.

https://www.access-board.gov/ada/gu...es-doors-and-gates/#doors-and-gates-in-series

EB51259B-632B-4111-8B5B-B8C960E710EE.jpeg
 
Last edited:
Still waiting for ICC for a written opinion, I will post it when I get it. See if says the same thing. As we know the ICC codes do not match the ADA requirements exactly. ICC really makes things hard to understand sometimes.
 
Last edited:
Rick18071 said:
We are getting off the subject. I am asking about ICC/ANSI A117.1 section 404.2.5 Two doors in a Series. Door are required to be at least 48" apart when open and a turning space between them is required.

Usually i need to check vestibules for this. But what about besides vestibules?
1. Does this code section also need to be for: a bathroom door to a shower or toilet compartment door that are close together. Do they need a turning space between them and at least 48" between the doors?
2. Does a door from the top of an exterior accessible lift to an entrance door need to meet this code section? Plans that I am reviewing show these two doors hitting each other when both are open on a exterior landing. Do they need a turning space between them and at least 48" between the doors?
3. How about doors across from each other in a 4' wide hall (doors swing away from hall). Do they need a turning space between them?
4. A door on each end of a 4' wide hallway 10' to 100' apart. Do they need a turning space between them?
Click to expand...
Maybe you can post a dwg?
 
Two doors across from each other in a vestibule do not need to comply with this section if there is a third door in the side of the vestibule (or anywhere else) because they don't have to use the door directly across from the first one to get to the same place. The third door makes it not a series?
 

Attachments

  • vestibule.pdf
    76.2 KB · Views: 8
Rick18071 said:
Two doors across from each other in a vestibule do not need to comply with this section if there is a third door in the side of the vestibule (or anywhere else) because they don't have to use the door directly across from the first one to get to the same place. The third door makes it not a series?
Click to expand...
Yes, that’s my opinion - - the 3rd door gives you a "not in series" because travel through door #2 is no longer REQUIRED (see post #65). The option exists to use door #3 instead of door #2.

But it does make sense that somewhere in the vestibule there should be a 30x48 space free of the door #1 swing arc, so the wheelchair user is able to close door #1 before using either door #2 or door #3, or else turning around and exit out through door #1.
 
Last edited:
Yikes said:
Yes, that’s my opinion - - the 3rd door gives you a "not in series" because travel through door #2 is no longer REQUIRED (see post #65). The option exists to use door #3 instead of door #2.

But it does make sense that somewhere in the vestibule there should be a 30x48 space free of the door #1 swing arc, so the wheelchair user is able to close door #1 before using either door #2 or door #3, or else turning around and exit out through door #1.
Click to expand...

Yikes said:
Yes, that’s my opinion - - the 3rd door gives you a "not in series" because travel through door #2 is no longer REQUIRED (see post #65). The option exists to use door #3 instead of door #2.

But it does make sense that somewhere in the vestibule there should be a 30x48 space free of the door #1 swing arc, so the wheelchair user is able to close door #1 before using either door #2 or door #3, or else turning around and exit out through door #1.
Click to expand...

So would it be different if the 3rd door went to a different tenant space?

Would double doors count as two doors in a vestibule? One of the 2 doors in a vestibule is a double door so it would count as 3 doors in a vestibule and then it would not be two doors in a series.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top