Two doors in a series

[Mr. Inspector]

ICC/ANSI A117.1 Two doors in a Series. Distance between two hinged or pivoted doors in series shall be 48" Min. plus width of any door swinging into the space. The space between the doors shall provide a turning space complying with Section 304.

Usually i need to check vestibules for this. But does this rule also need to be for a bathroom door to a shower or toilet compartment door that are close together?
Does a door from the top of an exterior accessible lift to an entrance door need to meet this? Plans that I am reviewing show these two doors hitting each other when both are open.
How about doors across from each other in a 3' wide hall?

 

[steveray]

No door in a 36" hall will be accessible....

 

[Mr. Inspector]

OK make it a 4' hallway

 

[mark handler]

The answer is no
besides the fact, Doors in a narrow hallway, cannot block the hallway
1005.7.1 Doors
Doors, when fully opened, shall not reduce the required width by more than 7 inches. Doors in any position shall not reduce the required width by more than one-half.

 

[steveray]

Across from each other, no....Doors are not allowed to block egress, but are allowed to block some accessibility based on it not being "necessary" to go from one to the other if there are other options....Sort of....

 

[Mr. Inspector]

No door in a 36" hall will be accessible....

These doors do not go into the hallway, go into rooms.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

We are getting off the subject. I am asking about ICC/ANSI A117.1 section 404.2.5 Two doors in a Series. Door are required to be at least 48" apart when open and a turning space between them is required.

Usually i need to check vestibules for this. But what about besides vestibules?
1. Does this code section also need to be for: a bathroom door to a shower or toilet compartment door that are close together. Do they need a turning space between them and at least 48" between the doors?
2. Does a door from the top of an exterior accessible lift to an entrance door need to meet this code section? Plans that I am reviewing show these two doors hitting each other when both are open on a exterior landing. Do they need a turning space between them and at least 48" between the doors?
3. How about doors across from each other in a 4' wide hall (doors swing away from hall). Do they need a turning space between them?
4. A door on each end of a 4' wide hallway 10' to 100' apart. Do they need a turning space between them?

 

[Sleepy]

That's a really good question. I would say a literal reading would say "yes", but it seems pretty harsh.

But, as a point of reference, the ABA standards (for federal facilities) have very similar language (ABA Standards 2015, para. 404.2.6) but omit the requirement for the turning space. The illustrations in the ABA standards also don't really look like vestibules, they look more like hallways. And the ADA Guidelines also have similar language (404.2.6), omitting the turning space requirement, but also adding "This allows users to clear one door or gate before opening the next and applies to those doors or gates that are opposite each other where travel through both doors is required." ADA also has a recommendation that allows only a 30" by 48" space beyond the first door in cases where the two doors are at right angles to each other, like you might see in a toilet room vestibule.

So, I still don't know.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Help! I'm mostly concerned about a plan review I am doing where an exterior accessible lift goes to an entrance door at a right angle and that are very close together. Is the door at the top of a lift be considered a "gate" and not a door? The ones I seen are usually 4' high. If it is a gate then I don't need to worry about this code section. The IBC has different sections on gates than for doors. But I don't see any definitions to what the difference between gates and doors. Should I go by what the manufacturers installation instructions call it (door or gate)?
Please give me your opinions.

 

[steveray]

Typically, the doors-in-series condition occurs in entry
vestibules that are used to reduce the infiltration of outside
air. It is important to realize that this requirement applies
only when the user must pass through two doors in succession.
The requirement would not be applicable if, instead
of a vestibule, the situation was a corridor and the two
doors were into offices located on opposite sides of the
corridor. A storm or screen door immediately in front of an
entrance door or communicating doors between two hotel
rooms are not considered doors in a series.

That help?

Compartments have their own little nuances and gimmies in ANSI....But I would hold them to some sort of in series/ maneuvering where applicable....Gates I would treat like doors although I know there may be differing opinions:

1010.2 Gates. Gates serving the means of egress system shall
comply with the requirements of this section. Gates used as a
component in a means of egress shall conform to the applicable
requirements for doors.

1109.13 Controls, operating mechanisms and hardware.
Controls, operating mechanisms and hardware intended for
operation by the occupant, including switches that control
lighting and ventilation and electrical convenience outlets, in
accessible spaces, along accessible routes or as parts of
accessible elements shall be accessible.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Typically, the doors-in-series condition occurs in entry
vestibules that are used to reduce the infiltration of outside
air. It is important to realize that this requirement applies
only when the user must pass through two doors in succession.
The requirement would not be applicable if, instead
of a vestibule, the situation was a corridor and the two
doors were into offices located on opposite sides of the
corridor. A storm or screen door immediately in front of an
entrance door or communicating doors between two hotel
rooms are not considered doors in a series.

That help?

Thanks so much for your help but this Does not help me. Apparently you never saw a vestibule that is for more then one tenant space or with doors on more then just 2 sides. I can't find in the code that the requirement applies "only when the user must pass through two doors in succession". Is that in the commentary?
If you need to use two doors in succession that are in a hallway (or any where else ) 20' apart that you must pass through to get to the space you want to get to why would't this need to comply? It seems that the code's intent is to have a turn around space in case the other doors are locked which could be in a hall or any where else. What do you think the intent of the code is? This section does not say if the doors needs to be only inside a building or a vestibule or I would think it would say it.

say building A has an entrance door to a corridor with three doors leading to offices.
building B has the same exact design except but instead of a corridor it has a vestibule with three doors leading to offices.
Are you saying only building B will have to comply to this code section?

 

[steveray]

Not sure what you are going for Rick, if the doors are 20' apart, you have the 48" between?...Another pic from commentary....

 

[John DeBruyne]

Rick, the verbiage that steveray provided is the commentary from ICC A117.1. Even though the code does not come right out and say it, the commentary he has highlighted in red would be applicable.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Rick, the verbiage that steveray provided is the commentary from ICC A117.1. Even though the code does not come right out and say it, the commentary he has highlighted in red would be applicable.

Thanks John. So you are saying it doesn't matter if the space between the 2 doors in a series is in a vestibule or any other kind of space or how many doors go off to other spaces in the space between the 2 doors or how far the the doors are apart from each other (as long they are at least 48" apart when open) or if the space between them is outside, of if any of them are gates, toilet stall doors or shower compartment doors a turning space is required between 2 doors in a series when the user must pass through two doors in succession on an accessible route to get to a space?

Of course small closet doors when the user must not pass through and only need to reach though would not applicable

I understand the the commentary says the requirement would not be applicable if, instead of a vestibule, two doors were into offices located on opposite sides of the corridor, but nothing about if they are on the same side of a corridor or opposite ends or any other way or any other space besides a corridor. I would think the commentary would just say or there would be an exception that the requirement not be applicable if not in a vestibule if that is what it meant. To me it doesn't make sense that if you had two entrances designed the exact same way and same size but one with a vestibule and the other with a corridor at the same place at the front entrance with doors on the opposite sides one would not be required to comply to this section but the other would.
.

I think saying that if the user must need to pass though two doors in succession is unnecessary because if there are two doors in any space someday a user will need to (must) pass through both doors in succession to get where they want to go. Even if there is another accessible way to go without needing for the user to must pass through both doors in succession this code section may still apply because of the following:
1104.5 Location. Accessible routes shall coincide with or be
located in the same area as a general circulation path. Where
the circulation path is interior, the accessible route shall also
be interior. Where only one accessible route is provided, the
accessible route shall not pass through kitchens, storage
rooms, restrooms, closets or similar spaces.

I just want to be sure because I'm hearing different things from others but I am open minded and very much like to hear other opinions. I always checked this for vestibules before but never thought of it applying to other spaces before and might have missed it on some plan reviews I did before.

 

[John DeBruyne]

Thanks John. So you are saying it doesn't matter if the space between the 2 doors in a series is in a vestibule or any other kind of space or how many doors go off to other spaces in the space between the 2 doors or how far the the doors are apart from each other (as long they are at least 48" apart when open) or if the space between them is outside, of if any of them are gates, toilet stall doors or shower compartment doors a turning space is required between 2 doors in a series when the user must pass through two doors in succession on an accessible route to get to a space?

Of course small closet doors when the user must not pass through and only need to reach though would not applicable

I understand the the commentary says the requirement would not be applicable if, instead of a vestibule, two doors were into offices located on opposite sides of the corridor, but nothing about if they are on the same side of a corridor or opposite ends or any other way or any other space besides a corridor. I would think the commentary would just say or there would be an exception that the requirement not be applicable if not in a vestibule if that is what it meant. To me it doesn't make sense that if you had two entrances designed the exact same way and same size but one with a vestibule and the other with a corridor at the same place at the front entrance with doors on the opposite sides one would not be required to comply to this section but the other would.
.

I think saying that if the user must need to pass though two doors in succession is unnecessary because if there are two doors in any space someday a user will need to (must) pass through both doors in succession to get where they want to go. Even if there is another accessible way to go without needing for the user to must pass through both doors in succession this code section may still apply because of the following:
1104.5 Location. Accessible routes shall coincide with or be
located in the same area as a general circulation path. Where
the circulation path is interior, the accessible route shall also
be interior. Where only one accessible route is provided, the
accessible route shall not pass through kitchens, storage
rooms, restrooms, closets or similar spaces.

I just want to be sure because I'm hearing different things from others but I am open minded and very much like to hear other opinions. I always checked this for vestibules before but never thought of it applying to other spaces before and might have missed it on some plan reviews I did before.

Oooof! That's a whole lot of scenarios to unravel that I really can't (won't) do. All I'm saying is that steveray was citing the specific and exact language in the commentary. Granted, the commentary is not the code so it is up to the designer and CO to determine if two doors qualify as being "in series".

 

[Yikes]

A toilet compartment door or a shower door is typically located in a room where there are other components, such as lavatories.
If a person was going to the bathroom to just use the lavatory, then that situation proves there's no "must use both doors in succession".

In those situations - for example, in an ADA residential bathroom - - there simply needs to be:
1. A 30x48" space that's clear of the door that swings into the restroom.
2. A 30x48" space that's clear of the shower door.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

A toilet compartment door or a shower door is typically located in a room where there are other components, such as lavatories.
If a person was going to the bathroom to just use the lavatory, then that situation proves there's no "must use both doors in succession".

In those situations - for example, in an ADA residential bathroom - - there simply needs to be:
1. A 30x48" space that's clear of the door that swings into the restroom.
2. A 30x48" space that's clear of the shower door.

True, but what if that person does not want to use the lavatory before using the shower or toilet compartment. Most people use a lavatory after they use the toilet compartment.

So if there is other components (such as vending machine, phone, etc.) that a person can use in a vestibule between the doors this would be the same scenario as what you described so a turn around space would not be needed between the vestibule doors?

 

[steveray]

Rick, a 5' hall/ corridor takes care of most doors for access/ maneuvering...And as you typically one have 1 accessible stall in most bathrooms it is generally not within 48" of the door. Anything not single user would have a turning space beyond the door that should make that one mostly moot....

 

[Yikes]

True, but what if that person does not want to use the lavatory before using the shower or toilet compartment. Most people use a lavatory after they use the toilet compartment.

So if there is other components (such as vending machine, phone, etc.) that a person can use in a vestibule between the doors this would be the same scenario as what you described so a turn around space would not be needed between the vestibule doors?

Operative word is "must", i.e. has no choice but to go into the shower upon entering the room.

 

[Paul Sweet]

The intent is that somebody in a wheelchair isn't able to get trapped in a space.

If 2 single doors in series don't have the 48" clear of door swing somebody can push the first door open and the wheelchair will keep it from closing while he pushes the second door open. However going the other way and having to pull the doors open the first one might close behind him and not leave enough room in the space to pull the second door open.

The way the code is written this appears to also apply to double doors. However, if someone comes through one leaf and there isn't room to open the leaf directly in front of them, what would be wrong about having to open the opposite leaf? This shouldn't be an issue in new construction, but I've run into cases in existing pre-ADA buildings where there was a 5 or 6 ft. deep alcove off a corridor with an outside door. I had to use sliding doors on the inside along the corridor because I couldn't get the 7 ft. that the letter of the code required without extending the slab and roof to make the alcove deeper. Now the inside doors open every time somebody walks down the corridor.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

Operative word is "must", i.e. has no choice but to go into the shower upon entering the room.

So you are saying if go through an entrance door and there is 2nd door besides the one door you want to go through even if the 2nd door goes someplace you don't want to go to it counts as a choice of doors and so you don't "must" go through just one door you want to go through and you don't need to comply with ICC/ANSI A117.1 section 404.2.5 like my drawing below? But if the 2nd door leads to different tenant space the 2nd door could be locked.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

The intent is that somebody in a wheelchair isn't able to get trapped in a space.

If 2 single doors in series don't have the 48" clear of door swing somebody can push the first door open and the wheelchair will keep it from closing while he pushes the second door open. However going the other way and having to pull the doors open the first one might close behind him and not leave enough room in the space to pull the second door open.

The way the code is written this appears to also apply to double doors. However, if someone comes through one leaf and there isn't room to open the leaf directly in front of them, what would be wrong about having to open the opposite leaf? This shouldn't be an issue in new construction, but I've run into cases in existing pre-ADA buildings where there was a 5 or 6 ft. deep alcove off a corridor with an outside door. I had to use sliding doors on the inside along the corridor because I couldn't get the 7 ft. that the letter of the code required without extending the slab and roof to make the alcove deeper. Now the inside doors open every time somebody walks down the corridor.

Thanks but I am more concerned about the turn around space between doors that are 10' to 50' apart in a 4' wide hallway.

 

[Yikes]

So you are saying if go through an entrance door and there is 2nd door besides the one door you want to go through even if the 2nd door goes someplace you don't want to go to it counts as a choice of doors and so you don't "must" go through just one door you want to go through and you don't need to comply with ICC/ANSI A117.1 section 404.2.5 like my drawing below? But if the 2nd door leads to different tenant space the 2nd door could be locked.

I'm saying that when you can (1) enter through door "A" into a space, and (2) get a 30x48" space clear of door "A" so that it can close, and you can use the space without needing to go through door "B" into another space, and you can (3) turn around and (4) exit door "A" again, then the space is not a "vestibule" that needs 48" clear between doors "A" and "B".

Take a look below at the image of an accessible hotel room (below), as published by the USDOJ in section 806 of https://www.ada.gov/regs2010/2010ADAStandards/Guidance2010ADAstandards.htm

In this example, the hotel guest may want to rush into the bathroom the moment they check into their hotel room. But there's no clearance between the doors, and the various door swings even overlap each other!
In fact, the way it's been drawn. it graphically looks like you would have to go all the way to the space between the beds in order to turn around and then do a side-approach in order to open the bathroom door.

 

[steveray]

I think what Rick is saying is that there may be no viable turnaround space in a 48" wide hallway...Rick? Which is why I mentioned the 60" hall in post 18...