Shop Drawings

[Yikes]

Hypothetical Example: a DPOR’s concrete floor plan shows a #4 @ 16” o/c each way in the slab, and a separate standard detail for the slab edge and perimeter footing shows the end of that rebar turning down forming a hook around another bar in the continuous footing. The slab is shaped with a 45 degree angle at one end in plan view, so the horizontal slab rebars need to be fabricated at different lengths.

The shop drawing created by the sub shows each individual rebar, its length, the and the location of the bends and hooks. This shop drawing is not adding any new design information, it is merely combining the information already shown and approved by the AHJ on 2 separate drawings (the plan and the detail), restating it in a single profile drawing of each rebar so the shop worker can follow a its pattern when bending the bar.

This shop drawing should not require review by the AHJ, because there is no additional design information being generated by this shop drawing. It is only about fabrication technique. The DPOR will review it to confirm the DPOR’s plan and the detail have been successfully mated together to match the design intent. The DPOR will not check the length of each individual rebar.

In the example above, the shop drawing was showing important structural information, but it did not require AHJ review. My point is this: the requirement for an AHJ to review a shop drawing should not be determined by whether they care about the drawing, it should be determined by whether the shop drawing is providing new code-related design information that was not otherwise already previously represented in some other format on the original approved plans.

 

[redeyedfly]

I agree. No one cares about cabinets, but we do care about the loading of metal stairs being fabricated for an assembly building that are part of a means of egress.

That's a deferred submittal because it's a delegated design, not a shop drawing. Most AHJ's want that submitted for review. You're mixing several different terms that have different meanings. This is not semantics, they are actually different things. The stair design from a fabricator will also be used as shop drawings because they produce designs to that level of detail, the building EOR typically does not.

 

[tmurray]

That's a deferred submittal because it's a delegated design, not a shop drawing. Most AHJ's want that submitted for review. You're mixing several different terms that have different meanings. This is not semantics, they are actually different things. The stair design from a fabricator will also be used as shop drawings because they produce designs to that level of detail, the building EOR typically does not.

What is the difference between a delegated design and a shop drawing?

 

[Sifu]

In another thread I have been communicating some issues with the plans for a school. I wrote of the DP's submittal showing telescoping seating, but provides very little info and the plans themselves show a generic picture that actually looks like fixed seating and only a pointer indicates the are telescoping seats. I found the specification, which just refers to shop drawings that need to demonstrate compliance with the applicable codes...ICC 300. Those shop drawings will need to be reviewed once they are done, but they haven't even been bid yet. So I will ask for the relevant information needed to verify their MOE now, and require them to be submitted as a deferred submittal, to be noted as reviewed by the DP and submitted for review by the AHJ. They can either submit them in response on the resubmittal, or include them as a deferred submittal for later.

When I determine that a deferred submittal needs to be reviewed I include a note on the plans that they must be submitted for review as a revision/addendum. Sometimes it actually happens.

 

[redeyedfly]

What is the difference between a delegated design and a shop drawing?

Architects and engineers delegate portions of the design to the contractors as design build. Steel stairs is an example. There are many ways to design a steel stair so the SEOR delegates that to the fabricator so they can design them in a way that is efficient for their shop to fabricate. The stair shop has their own engineer who knows how they like to build stairs and design with that in mind. That engineer will stamp the stair design. The design is very detailed and can be used for fabrication and installation also, like shop drawings.

Shop drawings purpose is only for fabrication and installation. Rebar shops, for example show how every stick should be bent and how they should be arranged in the erection drawings. They do not provide design and they are not stamped by any engineer, the construction documents provide the design. The construction documents will have typical hook and development length tables, etc. which the detailer uses to make the shop drawings.

 

[bill1952]

I think deferred submittal vs shop drawing is really the question. Deferred design is defined by IBC. Delegated is not but it is a term I hear used for some deferred designs. And deferred design drawings are handled like shop drawings but must be submitted to the building official. I think of sprinklers as one commonly deferred design.

 

[redeyedfly]

I think deferred submittal vs shop drawing is really the question. Deferred design is defined by IBC. Delegated is not but it is a term I hear used for some deferred designs. And deferred design drawings are handled like shop drawings but must be submitted to the building official. I think of sprinklers as one commonly deferred design.

Delegated design doesn't have much to do with the building code. A RDP delegates part of the design requiring an RDP to a different engineer. Sometimes that is a deferred submittal and sometimes it is submitted with the construction document package. They are not the same but can often be both (and also be shop drawings!! ) I can't think of a situation where a deferred submittal would NOT be a delegated design. Submittals are typically deferred because there isn't a design builder contracted for that scope yet at the time of plan submission.

 

[Yikes]

My favorite historic example of "deferred approval" is the Duomo (cathedral) in Florence. The base was designed by Arnolfo di Cambio to accommodate a future octagonal dome, and no one knew how to build such a large dome. They just had conviction that someone would figure it out some time in the future, so they had to build the foundations today. The city council approved the plans in 1294.
Neri di Fioravanti further developed the base in the 1300s, and finally Filippo Brunelleschi fully solved the dome design and construction scaffolding problem around 1420, about 125 years later.

Brunelleschi rightly gets credit for the innovative dome design, but kudos to the previous generations for sizing and building the foundations and the "drum" base for a deferred design they knew would never be done in their lifetimes.

 

[tmurray]

Architects and engineers delegate portions of the design to the contractors as design build. Steel stairs is an example. There are many ways to design a steel stair so the SEOR delegates that to the fabricator so they can design them in a way that is efficient for their shop to fabricate. The stair shop has their own engineer who knows how they like to build stairs and design with that in mind. That engineer will stamp the stair design. The design is very detailed and can be used for fabrication and installation also, like shop drawings.

Shop drawings purpose is only for fabrication and installation. Rebar shops, for example show how every stick should be bent and how they should be arranged in the erection drawings. They do not provide design and they are not stamped by any engineer, the construction documents provide the design. The construction documents will have typical hook and development length tables, etc. which the detailer uses to make the shop drawings.

That's what I though, but wanted to make sure. Good to make sure we make sure that we are all speaking the same "language" when talking about things like this.

The only thing I would say in contrast to your previous statements is that sometimes I have reviewed shop drawings for code compliance. Mostly for HVAC elements. As you mentioned, these documents are not sealed by the engineer of record, but are stamped by them as reviewed.