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showers in Type B apartment units

H

hans@dha-architects.

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Joined
Oct 12, 2022
Messages
81
Location
FARMINGTON, CT
can you use a standard shower unit in a type B unit, one with an actual threshold (4-6")? I have an apartment building going up, 10% of units are type A with roll-in type showers with 1/2" thresh, bars, etc., but the type B's we're looking to use standard units - the 2017 ANSI makes no mention of the 1/2" thresh under type B unit requirements where as type A directs you to section 608 requirements for showers, either roll-in or transfer, type B simply appears to only require blocking for bars and seat if not larger than 36"x36" - my MEP engineer is saying we need the 1/2" thresh as we're looking over some submittals now. If you can have a tub in type b units where there is a transfer seat, there is a much higher barrier to swing your feet over than if you were in a shower with a 4" thresh.
 
No threshold requirements for Type B units.

You also don't need to install grab bars in the Type A showers. (10% is a LOT! why?)

You should be addressing your questions to your accessibility consultant, not the plumbing engineer. If you don't have an accessibility consultant you are in for a world of problems (seems like you don't if you're asking here).
 
redeyedfly said:
No threshold requirements for Type B units.

You also don't need to install grab bars in the Type A showers. (10% is a LOT! why?)

You should be addressing your questions to your accessibility consultant, not the plumbing engineer. If you don't have an accessibility consultant you are in for a world of problems (seems like you don't if you're asking here).
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accessibility consultant? never heard of such a thing......maybe the requirements in CT are a little different than MN? 10% of units if you have over 20 I believe need to be type A, and bars are required in those units - frankly it's easier and cheaper to get a unit with all those things installed than to have to retrofit bars and what not later on......I'm not really consulting with my engineer, he was questioning it as he thinks the unit has to be adaptable - which it does, but not to the extent of what a type A requires which is what I think he assumes it needs to be (because that's what other clients are doing, so he says)
 
hans@dha-architects. said:
accessibility consultant? never heard of such a thing......maybe the requirements in CT are a little different than MN? 10% of units if you have over 20 I believe need to be type A, and bars are required in those units - frankly it's easier and cheaper to get a unit with all those things installed than to have to retrofit bars and what not later on......I'm not really consulting with my engineer, he was questioning it as he thinks the unit has to be adaptable - which it does, but not to the extent of what a type A requires which is what I think he assumes it needs to be (because that's what other clients are doing, so he says)
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Looks like CT has an unusually high number of Type A units required.

Grab bars are not required in Type A units in CT though. If a tenant wants grab bars they have to pay for them, you only need to install the blocking, just like in Type B showers.

Absolutely wild that you don't have an accessibility consultant.
 
redeyedfly said:
Looks like CT has an unusually high number of Type A units required.

Grab bars are not required in Type A units in CT though. If a tenant wants grab bars they have to pay for them, you only need to install the blocking, just like in Type B showers.

Absolutely wild that you don't have an accessibility consultant.
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True, bars aren’t required, but so much easier doing the all in one ada shower units, so it’s just what we do.
Really don’t see the purpose of a consultant other than assessing the needs of an existing building, unless someone’s just too lazy to read thru ansi when designing a building/space
 
hans@dha-architects. said:
True, bars aren’t required, but so much easier doing the all in one ada shower units, so it’s just what we do.
Really don’t see the purpose of a consultant other than assessing the needs of an existing building, unless someone’s just too lazy to read thru ansi when designing a building/space
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You can get the units without the bars just as easy, and cheaper. I assure you the leasing team does not want the bars.

You don't need a consultant?? LOL, what's the address of some of your projects? Easy money for a lawyer.
 
redeyedfly said:
You can get the units without the bars just as easy, and cheaper. I assure you the leasing team does not want the bars.

You don't need a consultant?? LOL, what's the address of some of your projects? Easy money for a lawyer.
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I’m not concerned with my work…..so are you one of these consultants or a lawyer?
 
hans@dha-architects. said:
I’m not concerned with my work…..so are you one of these consultants or a lawyer?
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Neither, I build multifamily. I have both an accessibility consultant (as do my architects and GCs, each their own separate consultant because they're also liable by statute) and an accessibility lawyer. It's not if, but when you will get sued.
We're getting sued right now on a building that is as near to perfect accessibility-code-wise as I've ever built. The plaintiff has 5 active cases right now with all the same complaints on new construction multifamily in about the same size. It's frivolous but everyone is getting sued and we have to deal with it. We will probably be ok because of the precautions we take but if you're putting grab bars in 10% of your units you probably are screwing up other sections of the code.

You are not nearly concerned enough.
 
redeyedfly said:
Neither, I build multifamily. I have both an accessibility consultant (as do my architects and GCs, each their own separate consultant because they're also liable by statute) and an accessibility lawyer. It's not if, but when you will get sued.
We're getting sued right now on a building that is as near to perfect accessibility-code-wise as I've ever built. The plaintiff has 5 active cases right now with all the same complaints on new construction multifamily in about the same size. It's frivolous but everyone is getting sued and we have to deal with it. We will probably be ok because of the precautions we take but if you're putting grab bars in 10% of your units you probably are screwing up other sections of the code.

You are not nearly concerned enough.
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So what exactly are you being sued over? Are you not allowed to rectify any complaints about these issues? Clearly if we’re installing bars in A units, we’re screwing up a lot of other things, been doing this 30 years and have never had a complaint
 
hans@dha-architects. said:
accessibility consultant? never heard of such a thing......maybe the requirements in CT are a little different than MN?
Click to expand...

How long have you been in practice? Bruce Spiewak in Connecticut was the go-to guy for codes (including accessibility issues) for decades, but I believe he retired a year or so ago. I've been an accessibility consultant for over 40 years. However, since I'm involved in this discussion on TBCF, I'm not suggesting that you hire me -- under the circumstances, I think it could be a conflict of interest.

Connecticut enforces ICC/ANSI A117.1 rather than the ADA, but the technical requirements are mostly the same. And the ADA and the Fair Housing Amendments Act remain in force and effect, they just aren't enforced by municipal building officials. Have you contacted the ADA Assistance Center in Boston for guidance? have you reached out to the Access Board?
 
redeyedfly said:
Looks like CT has an unusually high number of Type A units required.
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Connecticut amends that portion of the scoping. The double lines in the margins indicate a state amendment:

1758702304129.png

Connecticut doesn't amend the scoping for Type B units:

1758702373013.png

And Connecticut doesn't amend Table 1108.6.1.1

1758702474713.png
 
hans@dha-architects. said:
So what exactly are you being sued over? Are you not allowed to rectify any complaints about these issues? Clearly if we’re installing bars in A units, we’re screwing up a lot of other things, been doing this 30 years and have never had a complaint
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It's a shakedown. It happens all the time. They list a lot of items in the complaint that are often missed and hope we offer a settlement. We didn't miss and we won't offer a settlement. It will still cost us legal fees but it would be a lot more if we didn't meet FHA. It's not about fixing things, the guy owns a house, he was never going to rent from us, he just pretended he was going to to get a tour.

You've been doing this 30 years and your website shows zero multifamily projects. (it also has lorem ipsum all over it, so...)
Honestly, if you're putting grab bars in Type A units, you're not paying attention. The Type A units are always the last to rent because they are awkward. Nobody wants grab bars in their shower unless they need them. You're designing a less desirable product for your clients because you don't understand the requirements. Just because the leasing team's comments never made it back to you (did you ever ask?) doesn't mean it's not a problem.

I build a few thousand units a year so we have professionals who inform us what the tenants want and what they don't. We also have me who knows the code and what we must provide and what we aren't required to provide. 30 years is irrelevant, I meet people who have been doing aspects of their job wrong for decades all the time. I'm sure there are things I've been doing wrong for decades.
 
hans@dha-architects. said:
can you use a standard shower unit in a type B unit, one with an actual threshold (4-6")? I have an apartment building going up, 10% of units are type A with roll-in type showers with 1/2" thresh, bars, etc., but the type B's we're looking to use standard units - the 2017 ANSI makes no mention of the 1/2" thresh under type B unit requirements where as type A directs you to section 608 requirements for showers, either roll-in or transfer, type B simply appears to only require blocking for bars and seat if not larger than 36"x36" - my MEP engineer is saying we need the 1/2" thresh as we're looking over some submittals now. If you can have a tub in type b units where there is a transfer seat, there is a much higher barrier to swing your feet over than if you were in a shower with a 4" thresh.
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A couple more things.

Most errors in Type B showers is not meeting the minimum size. 36" x 36" is the minimum interior dimensions. If you order showers with a 36" square rough in they won't be compliant. You can't have bars or molded in nooks where the grab bars are installed (future). Most showers sold are not FHA compliant. Please post your shower model, I bet $1 they're not compliant.

Tubs don't need a permanent transfer seat for Type A or Type B, yes you can use tubs in Type A, they're actually the easiest to comply.
 
redeyedfly said:
A couple more things.

Most errors in Type B showers is not meeting the minimum size. 36" x 36" is the minimum interior dimensions. If you order showers with a 36" square rough in they won't be compliant. You can't have bars or molded in nooks where the grab bars are installed (future). Most showers sold are not FHA compliant. Please post your shower model, I bet $1 they're not compliant.

Tubs don't need a permanent transfer seat for Type A or Type B, yes you can use tubs in Type A, they're actually the easiest to comply.
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a shower with min. 30" x 44" is also allowed in B, we're using 5' showers which exceed those inside dimensions, and true, roll-ins aren't required in A's but people prefer a larger shower than a transfer, but will use those if space is at a premium
 
hans@dha-architects. said:
a shower with min. 30" x 44" is also allowed in B, we're using 5' showers which exceed those inside dimensions, and true, roll-ins aren't required in A's but people prefer a larger shower than a transfer, but will use those if space is at a premium
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Which safe harbor allows a 30" x 44"? *hint* the 2017 A117.1 is not yet an approved safe harbor by HUD.

Your 5' shower better be 36" min deep or you don't meet FHA. Also, an excellent illustration of why you need a consultant. (See FHADM 7.58)
 
I disagree about Type A showers not needing grab bars. They do in the 2009 A117.1.
 
hans@dha-architects. said:
2009 A117.1 - 1003.11.1 "grab bar and shower seat reinforcement" says reinforcement shall be provided for the future installation of grab bars complying with the applicable fixture in 607-608
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Yes, but then 1003.11.2.5.2 says that a single restroom must comply with 608. To me this is a general vs specific requirement. General--all restrooms shall have blocking... specific--at least one restroom must comply with 607/608 (1003.11.2 / 11.2.5.1&2)
 
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