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Accessible bar seating....

The accessible portion of the bar (counter) might be 32" high and everyone else around me is being served at a bar (counter) height of 42" to 48".

Yes that would make me feel included and equal as I have to look up at everyone around me.

Ridiculous requirement when the same service is provided elswhere in the same room.
 
mtlogcabin said:
The accessible portion of the bar (counter) might be 32" high and everyone else around me is being served at a bar (counter) height of 42" to 48". Yes that would make me feel included and equal as I have to look up at everyone around me.

Ridiculous requirement when the same service is provided elswhere in the same room.
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I was thinking the very same thing. So why not require a lift at the bar that will raise a chair to bar height.
 
mtlogcabin said:
The accessible portion of the bar (counter) might be 32" high and everyone else around me is being served at a bar (counter) height of 42" to 48". Yes that would make me feel included and equal as I have to look up at everyone around me.

Ridiculous requirement when the same service is provided elswhere in the same room.
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Is it the same service? Is sitting at a table by yourself while everyone else sits at a bar equivalent facilitation? Is it ridiculous to think that a lowered counter at the bar is more inclusive than a table 5 feet away from the bar? Are there other reasons people like to sit at bars? Maybe they know the bartender, they like to sit at the bar and have a drink there and talk to their psychiatrist, or just talk shop. Are certain people not to be afforded that dignity?

I fail to see what is ridiculous about that.
 
I don't go to "bars" so I don't know the reasons people frequent those establishments. I do know I learned at a very early age that life is not fair and everything can't be equal for everbody no matter how hard we try

A 5 foot long lower bar section can be half the bar in most establishments. The design of a bar is for the benifit of the worker behind the bar to efficiently do their job which is serving drinks. It provides a place for the product, sinks, ice and other related equipment out of sight and reach of the patrons.

I don't agree that a person is afforded dignity just because he/she can be served at a bar instead of a table
 
I don't care if it (or any requirement) is rediculous or not....I just want to do my job, and if I can inform my customers of a requirement that may be in place beyond my authority in the process, then I will do it....
 
steveray said:
I don't care if it (or any requirement) is rediculous or not....I just want to do my job, and if I can inform my customers of a requirement that may be in place beyond my authority in the process, then I will do it....
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I agree and I do. This forum just gives me a place to vent from time to time on things I may disagree with.

Papio I apoligize for the "dignity" comment. It wasn't appropriate and came across as personal attack after I posted, but I can't Edit it now :(
 
mt I get it.

I do have to agree with Papio about it not being the same thing sitting at a table when every one wants to go to the bar.

When I posted I was thinking that it would not be all that fun to be seated at the bar even with a counter at chair height if everyone else is up at bar level.

As far as some bars are concerned all the "best" social interaction happens at the bar, and most of the time those bars are much larger than the required ADA section.

On the flip side if the bar is meant to only have a few people sit or stand at then there should be an exception to the ADA requirement, because as you stated it is there primarily to help expedite drinks to the rest of the establishment.
 
mtlogcabin said:
I agree and I do. This forum just gives me a place to vent from time to time on things I may disagree with.Papio I apoligize for the "dignity" comment. It wasn't appropriate and came across as personal attack after I posted, but I can't Edit it now :(
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No worries mt, I didn't see it that way.

I agree with you on the fairness issue, in part...and I appreciate your venting. I fully understand, that life is hard enough as it is for everyone, the last thing we need are excessive regulations making life harder.

In my limited experience, having played in pool leagues in bars for the last fifteen years, bars are often times an extension of a portion of a community. Many people wander in and socialize, and celebrate our national past-time of complaining about anything and everything under the sky, and especially the sky (e.g. the weather). This often occurs when one is ponied up at the bar with several other bar aquaintances with the bartender often serving as a counselor and offering up advice and prescribing various tonics for the patrons ailments and woes. The neighborhood bars I frequent rarely have anyone sitting at tables until the bar stools are all taken.

Several of my former team-mates, and opponents have been in wheel chairs and they have vocalized their appreciation for the lowered counter which allows them to sit at the bar and share a drink/shot with their team-mates and opponents. I think in new construction that is fair to ask for.
 
Last time I was in a bar in Omaha I know me and my buddies cursed the weather. People out there need the bars so they can keep up the anti freeze levels in their blood. The bartender act more like a booky/promoter than a counselor; he called up some one to play me, held the money, and he even gave me the money when I won the game.
 
gbhammer said:
Last time I was in a bar in Omaha I know me and my buddies cursed the weather. People out there need the bars so they can keep up the anti freeze levels in their blood. The bartender act more like a booky/promoter than a counselor; he called up some one to play me, held the money, and he even gave me the money when I won the game.
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Sounds like a few pubs in the neighborhood...don't play for money anymore (except in tournaments). I didn't like feeling bad for the guys who were losing other peoples money. Nice bartender. I only expect them to hold me to my limit on rusty nails and how serve a wild turkey on rye, neat.
 
Papio Bldg Dept said:
Sounds like a few pubs in the neighborhood...don't play for money anymore (except in tournaments). I didn't like feeling bad for the guys who were losing other peoples money. Nice bartender. I only expect them to hold me to my limit on rusty nails and how serve a wild turkey on rye, neat.
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I like mine with honey.
 
Population Distribution

Number of people who have a disability, 54 million . They represent over 19 percent of noninstitutionalized population.

By age —

•5 percent of children 5 to 17 have disabilities.

•10 percent of people 18 to 64 have disabilities.

•38 percent of adults 65 and older have disabilities.

Source: 2008 American Community Survey

Percentage of females with a disability, 12.4% compared with 11.7 percent of males.

Source: 2008 American Community Survey

11 million Using or Needing Assistance

Number of disabled people 6 and older who need personal assistance with everyday activities. These activities include such tasks as getting around inside the home, taking a bath or shower, preparing meals and performing light housework.

3.3 million Number of people 15 and older who use a wheelchair. Another 10 million use a walking aid, such as a cane, crutches or walker.

Specific Disabilities

1.8 million Number of people 15 and older who report being unable to see printed words.

1 million Number of people 15 and older who reported being unable to hear conversations.

2.5 million Number of people 15 and older who have difficulty having their speech understood. Of this number, 431,000 were unable to have their speech understood.

16.1 million Number of people with limitations in cognitive functioning or who have a mental or emotional illness that interferes with daily activities, including those with Alzheimer's disease and mental retardation. This group comprises 7 percent of the population 15 and older. This included 8 million with one or more problems that interfere with daily activities, such as frequently being depressed or anxious, trouble getting along with others, trouble concentrating and trouble coping with stress.

On the Job 13.3 million

Number of 16- to 64-year-olds who reported difficulty finding a job or remaining employed because of a health condition.

46% Percentage of people 21 to 64 having some type of disability who were employed. The employment rate ranged from 75 percent of those with a nonsevere disability to 31 percent with a severe disability. For those without a disability, the employment rate is 84 percent for the same period.

59% Percent of people 21 to 64 with difficulty hearing that were employed. The corresponding percentage for those with difficulty seeing was 41 percent.

48% Percentage of people 21 to 64 with a nonsevere disability who work full time. This compares with 63 percent without a disability and 16 percent with a severe disability.

6% Percentage of disabled workers 16 and older who used public transportation to commute to work. In addition, 69 percent of people with a disability drove alone, 13 percent carpooled, 4 percent walked and 3 percent used a taxicab, motorcycle, bicycle or other means.

Source: 2008 American Community Survey

21% Percentage of disabled workers 16 and older who worked in the educational services and health care and social assistance industries.

Source: 2008 American Community Survey

Income and Poverty $2,250

Median monthly earnings for people 21 to 64 with a nonsevere disability. This compares with $2,539 for those with no disability and $1,458 for those with a severe disability.

$2,252 Median monthly earnings for people 21 to 64 with difficulty hearing. The corresponding figure for those with difficulty seeing was $1,932.

12% The poverty rate for people 25 to 64 with a nonsevere disability. This compares with 27 percent for those with a severe disability and 9 percent of those without a disability.

Serving Our Nation

$36.3 billion Amount of compensation veterans received for service-connected disabilities in fiscal year 2008.

Source: Statistical Abstract of the United States: 2010, Table 511

Accommodations

98% Percent of transit buses that were lift- or ramp-equipped, as of 2007. This represents an increase from 62 percent in 1995.

Source: Statistical Abstract of the United States: 2010, Table 1079

Education

28% Percentage of people 25 and older with a disability who had less than a high school graduate education. This compares with 12 percent for those with no disability.

Source: 2008 American Community Survey

13% Percentage of people 25 and older with a disability who had a bachelor's degree or higher. This compares with 31 percent for those with no disability.

Source: 2008 American Community Survey
 
mtlogcabin said:
That is less than .01% of the entire US population that uses a wheelchair
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Discrimination to 1% or 10% or 50% of the population is still Discrimination

God forbid you fall off a ladder or get in an accident and become one of the 1%
 
I just provided a statistic why are you offended?

God forbid you fall off a ladder or get in an accident and become one of the 1%
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Been there, done that, surgery, 8 weeks physical therapy, could not work for 18 months, forced to make a career change.
 
"That is less than .01% of the entire US population that uses a wheelchair"

2010 United States census: Population was 308,745,538.

So the citation is more than 1% of the entire US population using a wheelchair.
 
Doorman said:
"That is less than .01% of the entire US population that uses a wheelchair" 2010 United States census: Population was 308,745,538.

So the citation is more than 1% of the entire US population using a wheelchair.
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The Stat I posted says "3.3 million Number of people 15 and older who use a wheelchair."

Not the "entire US population" mtlogcabin, posted "entire US population"
 
Some country's have made affirmative action laws illegal because of reverse discrimination. I am curious as to whether that may happen here. The supreme court not so long ago ruled in that direction with what happened with the fire fighters in new haven conn.
 
I found this interesting that businesses may no longer be able to require a high school diploma as a job requirement because one individual who had a learning disability may not have been able to get a diploma and they would have automatically been "screened out" for the position. So businesses have to alter their application requirements of finding ways to meet certain job applicants. For decades employers used the high school diploma minimal requirement to apply for a job and to do just that "screen out" individuals who do not have a diploma for what ever reason. Does it take a high school diploma to be a bartender? No, but if that is a minimum qualification an employer establishes for his/her business that is their choice.

Thus, if an employer adopts a high school diploma requirement for a job, and that requirement “screens out” an individual who is unable to graduate because of a learning disability that meets the ADA’s definition of “disability,” the employer may not apply the standard unless it can demonstrate that the diploma requirement is job related and consistent with business necessity. The employer will not be able to make this showing, for example, if the functions in question can easily be performed by someone who does not have a diploma.

http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/foia/letters/2011/ada_qualification_standards.html
 
mtlogcabin said:
No, but if that is a minimum qualification an employer establishes for his/her business that is their choice.
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I know you are discussing the high school diploma as a discriminating quality required by an employer, but the broader issue is, if that discriminating quality requirement is not applicable to the performance of the job description, is it not also considered a form of civil rights discrimination?
 
A high school diploma isn't just a document to measure a persons educational ability. A diploma states an individual was committed and willing to submit to a system and authorities to recieve the reward of a diploma. Those that did not would not be the best employee.

If a few fall through the cracks because of this pratice and their learning disability is that a civil rights violation? Some will say yes some will say that's life.
 
In speaking with a technician at the ADA Hotline, it was determined that if a space (rooms) with bar seating and fixed tables, the required 5% of the accessible seating may be at the fixed tables.

To clarify, the bar and the tables must be located within the same space or room, and the tables must be fixed.

This pretty much reflects my previous post that references a conversation with the ICC concerning this matter.

This previously provided link is to a DOJ publication dated 1999 and is not current. The wording has changed. Here is that link:

http://www.ada.gov/smbustxt.htm


http://www.ada.gov/smbustxt.htmhttp://www.ada.gov/smbustxt.htm

http://www.ada.gov/smbustxt.htm

http://www.ada.gov/smbustxt.htmServing Counters


Also, keep in mind that in a bar seating area, if there is no entertainment, lines of sight are not applicable

Here are the 2010 ADA Sections:

2010 ADA; 226 Dining Surfaces and Work Surfaces 226.1 General. Where dining surfaces are provided for the consumption of food or drink, at least 5 percent of the seating spaces and standing spaces at the dining surfaces shall comply with 902. In addition, where work surfaces are provided for use by other than employees, at least 5 percent shall comply with 902.

2010 ADA; 226.2 Dispersion. Dining surfaces and work surfaces required to comply with 902 shall be dispersed throughout the space or facility containing dining surfaces and work surfaces.
 
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