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ADA Merit/Demerit General discussion, in abstract.

conarb said:
What are these profiteering scoundrels charging anyway, does anyone know?
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The city of Woodland (a dinky town) tells business owners that they should expect to pay around $1200. I have heard as high as $2500. The truth is that I haven't a clue.

A friend that owns restaurants paid $1500 to settle a lawsuit. He said that the violation that was stated in the lawsuit didn't exist but his lawyer advised that it would be cheaper to pay off the litigant.
 
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I live 15 min from Woodland. An inspector from one of the other adjacent towns was the one telling me about calcasp. Said it was very thorough and difficult but was sort of vague on its usefulness. I got the feeling it was all part of a long term retirement plan.

So I guess there will be blue sides and red sides with businesses in the middle paying out the tariffs to all parties in the ADA industry.

And what an industry it is.

Brent.
 
conarb said:
I wonder if any business owners have tried filing extortion actions in the criminal courts? Is that $1,200 a fee charged by the city or are they are estimating the fee a private CASp would charge? California has a long list of people in this industry .
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The $1200 is an estimate of what a CASP inspector might charge.

Having been in business, I can say that I would roll the dice and do nothing. Maybe a sign that read "No disabled people allowed"....Ya that's the ticket....I already refused to deal with women and nobody sued me for that.
 
First let me say I am not a CASp

CASp ….What a racket?

It’s like the difference between an unlicensed handyman and a licensed contractor…

It’s like the difference between a draftsman and an architect or engineer

It’s like having a residential contractor build a theater or a bridge building contractor build a wood framed single family house

It's like you having a patent attorney represent you in a DUI lawsuit

CASp certification is not required

Ya it a racket…..

You might want to find out what and why something exists before you criticize it

A CASp is like a special inspector, with specialized Knowledge
 
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mark handler said:
First let me say I am not a CASpCASp ….What a racket?

It’s like the difference between an unlicensed handyman and a licensed contractor…

It’s like the difference between a draftsman and an architect or engineer

It’s like having a residential contractor build a theater or a bridge building contractor build a wood framed single family house

It's like you having a patent attorney represent you in a DUI lawsuit

CASp certification is not required

Ya it a racket…..

You might want to find out what and why something exists before you criticize it
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You just just confused me to death.You're not CASP, but you keep people from being sued? You make it sound like you are the handiman of ADA advice, which I'm sure is not what you meant.

I don't think anyone called it a racket, but it sure can be. You get the right connections, become an authority locally, and be the only guy, you have the makings of a right fine racket, just like some ADA litigants.

Or maybe you charge a fair price for your time and effort to help businesses insulate themselves from scumbags.

Takes all types.

Brent.
 
One of the questions on the test for a CASP certification is "How high is the arc of water at a water fountain?" Then there's all the numbers for heights, widths etc. None of which matter much in the grand scheme of things. Is the toilet placed too close to a wall or is the :butt too wide?

An onerous monster was created with ADA lawsuits being sanctioned. Rather than admit the mistake, another monster has been created to fight the first monster.

Anyway, what with me being an uninformed naysayer, I wouldn't put much importance on what I have to say.
 
mark handler said:
BrentAs I stated before, you know nothing about me
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I know you are a fragile little snowflake that has defensive issues. My question above was legit and non-aggressive. I was trying to figure out if you think the Casp thing is legit. Your statement is confusing.

By the by, I know a little about you. Well educated, great architectural background, successful ventures, senior positions. Impressive.

I'm on the verge of becoming a mechanic, so you got me. Just stay with me here.

Brent.
 
MASSDRIVER said:
Well educated, great architectural background, successful ventures, senior positions. Impressive.
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What? No relation to Chelsea?
 
I've met Clint Walker but the only relationship is a hole in the chest. I am young enough to be his son.

Seriously Mark, I know that you are no dummy when it comes to ADA or life in general for that matter. So if anybody can make the case for CASp, you can. More important is whether you believe in it.
 
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ICE said:
Convince him that it is also logical.
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I don't need to convince anyone, anything.

I am here to learn and educate.

It is not rocket science, but many seem to think so, and therefore just choose to avoid doing anything or to avoid even reading the code.

The most simple code issues appear to defeat the intellectual capacity of everyone involved, from architects to contractors to inspectors.

Clear means clear.

A range of dimensions means it needs to be in that range, not a half inch over.
 
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mark handler said:
I don't need to convince anyone, anything.I am here to learn and educate.
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Want to know what kind of man MH is?

Just to let me know he's got his poop in a group, he sent me what his google-foo could dig up. So here is his private message to me:

I know you are a fragile little snowflake that has defensive issues.

"I know you are a fragile little snowflake that has defensive issues. "

I think not.

Brent Jackson, 46

Yuba City, CA

Patricia L Jackson age 70

26345 Grafton Street

Esparto, CA 95627-2048

(530) 301-7355

Brent Jackson was born in 1967.

Brent currently lives in Yuba City, California.

Before that, he lived in Esparto, CA from 2005 to 2010.

Before that, he lived in Wheatland, CA in 1998.

Brent Jackson attended Wheatland HS in Wheatland, CA and graduated class of 1985.

BRENT WADE JACKSON,

687787 JACKSON BUILDING COMPANY WHEATLAND 04/20/1994 StatusCANCELLED

771165 JACKSON BUILDING COMPANY ESPARTO 11/05/1999 StatusEXPIRED

Kitchen Planning & Remodeling Service, Bathroom Remodeling, Home Builders

Carpentry specialist for 23 years.

Framing and finishing, cabinets and trim installation, kitchen and bath remodels, custom stairs, commercial buildings.

See. He does like games. But his reading comprehension leaves something to be desired.

My wife Patricia is not 70. Thank god.

Don't live on Grafton anymore. Don't live in Yuba City now.

First license was my partnership with my dad, Stroke got him.

Could not afford to pay my contractors licence before the due date, so cancelled. Payed now, waiting for the $560 blood money to go through so I can buy my job.

That Grafton house was foreclosed on. Thank you world.

I owe a lot of back taxes.

But I cut a mean roof and I'm not a bad carpenter.

Shall we get back to the issue at hand my little diabolical snowflake?
 
mark handler said:
Clear means clear.A range of dimensions means it needs to be in that range, not a half inch over.
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So a bathtub surround is torn out for 1/2"? 1/120 off is enough? We are dealing with all of the shapes and sizes of the human form. Are the ideal ranges based in science? Or was it a committee of ADA wonks with tape measures?

Worth noting is that there are ranges in other codes but it is only ADA ranges that are so strictly enforced. The potential for a lawsuit is the difference....not a potential calamity. That is wrong and shouldn't happen.
 
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ICE said:
So a bathtub surround is torn out for 1/2"? 1/120 off is enough?

We are dealing with all of the shapes and sizes of the human form.

Are the ideal ranges based in science?

Or was it a committee of ADA wonks with tape measures?
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1. Yes

2. Maybe

3. Minimum is minimum

4. Yes

6. No
 
mark handler said:
1. Yes2. Maybe

3. Minimum is minimum

4. Yes

6. No
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So the wonks didn't have tape measures?

I met a man at an ICC provided training class. He was the instructor. We discussed how certian numbers were chosen for the code, one of them being 50 occupants as a trigger for exiting requirements. I wanted to know how that number was derived. He said that it was arbitrary. They needed a number and all agreed with 50...so fifty it is. I asked him, "Why not sixty? He said that it was a committee decision. He was on the committee.

So what does this have to do with ADA? One wouldn't think that such a thing can happen and yet it does. Why would one think that the ADA regulations are any different? Considering that people vary in height from 4' to 8' tall and weigh from 99 to 400 pounds, the ADA ranges certainly appear just as arbitrary as 50 occupants.
 
ICE said:
So the wonks didn't have tape measures?I met a man at an ICC provided training class. He was the instructor. We discussed how certian numbers were chosen for the code, one of them being 50 occupants as a trigger for exiting requirements. I wanted to know how that number was derived. He said that it was arbitrary. They needed a number and all agreed with 50...so fifty it is. I asked him, "Why not sixty? He said that it was a committee decision. He was on the committee.

So what does this have to do with ADA? One wouldn't think that such a thing can happen and yet it does. Why would one think that the ADA regulations are any different. Considering that people vary in height from 4' to 8' tall and weigh from 99 to 400 pounds, the ranges certainly appear just as arbitrary as 50 occupants.
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Have or use tape measures?

you can go to the DOJ and Access Boards websites to see the studies that they use for many dimensions
 
The ADA requirements have extensive research done with people of all disabilities. There is currently one or it may be just recently finished but it had to take into consideration all of those jazzy chairs on wheels you see everywhere. Some of the requirements were lobbied by different organizations. The reach range of 54 was reduced to 48, mostly because the little people, aka midgets, dwarfs, etc. could not reach 54". That is why gas pumps had to be changed. The vertical grab bar in ANSI, but not in ADA was lobbied by AARP because it was determined that people had more strength to pull themselves up than push off a horizontal bar. The height of legs, wheelchairs, jazzy scooters, etc all come into play in a very realistic way.

These rules are here for a reason and they have tolerances. I just don't see what is so hard about people doing their job right the first time and being held responsible for their actions or inactions. Why is there a need to lay out excuses for not being competent at your job?
 
ICE said:
So the wonks didn't have tape measures?I met a man at an ICC provided training class. He was the instructor. We discussed how certian numbers were chosen for the code, one of them being 50 occupants as a trigger for exiting requirements. I wanted to know how that number was derived. He said that it was arbitrary. They needed a number and all agreed with 50...so fifty it is. I asked him, "Why not sixty? He said that it was a committee decision. He was on the committee.

So what does this have to do with ADA? One wouldn't think that such a thing can happen and yet it does. Why would one think that the ADA regulations are any different? Considering that people vary in height from 4' to 8' tall and weigh from 99 to 400 pounds, the ADA ranges certainly appear just as arbitrary as 50 occupants.
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Seems a lot of things operate like that. Like engineering details that have to exceed load by 3 times. I've always asked "why 3"? Why not 6 or 7 or if it were scientific, 2.765? .08 blood alcohol, 10 round mags, 16" rifle barrels. I doubt very seriously too much science was brought into play. Nice round numbers give that ploy away.

Brent.
 
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