ADA Merit/Demerit General discussion, in abstract.

[ICE]

Nice round numbers give that ploy away.

The numbers in ADA are all over the map. Just holding the numbers to all even numbers would be a huge improvement.

But then of course, the arc of water at a water fountain would have to be 4" and empirical evidence won't support that.

 

[mark handler]

But then of course, the arc of water at a water fountain would have to be 4" and empirical evidence won't support that.

Also remember there is a high/low requirement and a separate requirements for children

 

[ICE]

Also remember there is a high/low requirement and a separate requirements for children

Ain't that something. What about pets?

CASp certified or not, the book is required to inspect a water fountain.

When I was a child, we weren't allowed to use public water fountains. Especially in Chicago.

 

[mark handler]

Ain't that something. What about pets?

Service Animals, not part of the building code....

By the way service animals are not pets...

 

[jar546]

Ain't that something. What about pets?CASp certified or not, the book is required to inspect a water fountain.

Here you go.

1102.4.3.2(a) Service dogs shall be provided with a stainless steel bowl no less than 8" in diameter and capable of holding 1 quart of fresh, potable water. Establishments required to provide water bowls for service dogs shall be responsible for the sanitary condition of the bowls.

 

[mark handler]

Here you go.1102.4.3.2(a) Service dogs shall be provided with a stainless steel bowl no less than 8" in diameter and capable of holding 1 quart of fresh, potable water. Establishments required to provide water bowls for service dogs shall be responsible for the sanitary condition of the bowls.

 

[ICE]

Originally Posted by jar546

Here you go.

1102.4.3.2(a) Service dogs shall be provided with a stainless steel bowl no less than 8" in diameter and capable of holding 1 quart of fresh, potable water. Establishments required to provide water bowls for service dogs shall be responsible for the sanitary condition of the bowls.

That's too funny...and all the proof anyone needs that this stuff is over the top.

 

[mark handler]

That's too funny...and all the proof anyone needs that this stuff is over the top.

And you fell for that.... all the proof we need that people need education....**02 is definitions.....in all sections of the code.

 

[MASSDRIVER]

Here you go.

Does that mean it HAS to have a diameter? I can't comply with a square or ovaloid bowl? What exactly is sanitary? can a leaf or 2 be floating it, cause if I was real thirsty a leaf wouldn't bother me. If the dog licks his junk first, then goes after the bowl, do I have to run interference to get the bowl clean for the next dog? Cause leaves I'm OK with, but I'm somewhat sketchy on dog balls.

It also says it just has to hold at least one quart of water, but says nothing about whether the dog can drink out of it. How about I get one that holds 3 quarts of water, and then put surgically clean rocks in the bowl so it leaves the water on the bottom of the bowl and he just has to lick the rocks?

I'm still compliant. Those lab coats need to get on this.

Brent.

 

[ICE]

And you fell for that.... all the proof we need that people need education....**02 is definitions.....in all sections of the code.

Really? He made that up and made a fool out of me? Good job of it Jeff.

 

[jar546]

ADA Merit/Demerit General discussion, in abstract.

Clearing my throat sound if you know what I mean

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

 

[ICE]

Go ahead and spit.

 

[JPohling]

Of all the pointless rantings.................design to the code, build to the code and inspect per the code and we would not have any issues. It really is that simple.

 

[mtlogcabin]

It is not that simple

Nothing has ever nor will it ever be 100% designed, built or inspected to the code.

The code allows for the building official to make interpretations of the code, under a civil rights law only the courts can make a determination as to how a specific section applies. Two entirely different systems. One will say is it safe, will it work even through the letter of the code is not followed. The other one will say was some one excluded, where they inconvenienced in some small manner, did they feel offended?

As building inspectors we make judgement calls every day regarding the application of the code. The ADA and courts do not recognize a judgment call.

 

[mark handler]

It is not that simpleNothing has ever nor will it ever be 100% designed, built or inspected to the code.

The code allows for the building official to make interpretations of the code, under a civil rights law only the courts can make a determination as to how a specific section applies. Two entirely different systems. One will say is it safe, will it work even through the letter of the code is not followed. The other one will say was some one excluded, where they inconvenienced in some small manner, did they feel offended?

As building inspectors we make judgement calls every day regarding the application of the code. The ADA and courts do not recognize a judgment call.

The courts do recognize compliance to the code and standards in force, they do not recognize a judgment call that does not comply.

That is why it is important for people that make "judgment calls" know court cases. That way, the judgment call, is based on something other than a "I guess" it'll work..

 

[ICE]

Of all the pointless rantings.................design to the code, build to the code and inspect per the code and we would not have any issues. It really is that simple.

If it were all that damned easy, would there be so much attention? Look at the space it takes up in a code book. Look at the plethora of measurements with one fraction after another. There is an ICC certification for accessibility inspector and plan checker. But it didn't stop there and now there are CASp certified individuals because apparently ADA can be beyond the capability of the inspector/plan checker.

The ADA lobby wasn't satisfied with a state code so there is a federal code...or maybe it is the other way around. What other codes have as much attention. If it were as simple as do it right the first time, what happened with the other codes? Why are there so many mistakes with far less convoluted codes to follow?

As Mark so generously pointed out, I don't know much about chapter 11. That's on purpose because I seldom have to know anything about accessibility. It was easy enough for Jeff to fool me....I didn't expect that and there's enough other overblown minutia in the accessibility regulations that the dogs balls fit right in.

What I do know is that ADA is the taking of one persons wealth and lavishing it on another. Since leaving the Garden, mankind has endured inequality. Tall/short--sighted/blind--hearing/deaf--smart/notso--sick/healthy--pretty/ohno--rich/poor--ambulatory/wheelchair-bound--Jeff/everybody else.

A few thousand years into it, society decided that drastic action is required to erase accessibility inequality to the degree that it is physically possible. Building departments were thrust to the forefront of civil rights enforcement. Animatronics engineers would have been a smarter choice; it's not too late.

In a lawyers office today when I noticed that there are signs all over the place...every door had one, exit, not an exit, men's room, not a men's room. All of the signs have braille...I have an app for that. I thought, "What a bunch of rude people that work here" "they would leave the blind guy on his own" Ah! there's fire. Find a door blind guy, find a door...now find another door blind guy 'cause that's the not a men's room door.

Point being, society has to want to do something before society will succeed in doing it right. Society should accommodate the diverse disadvantages available and for the blind I would suggest talking signs. Or perhaps we could help them along like we used to for old Mr. Eber.

But naw, that won't do at all. That is too much like the parking space icons on the asphalt that were too large. That drew attention to the disabled individual so it was made smaller. And don't you know, you can be sued over that.

 

[MASSDRIVER]

It really surprised me, some of the attitude I see. I've seen "diatribe", it's been inferred that I don't support accessibility, and the conversation has run off the rails a couple of times, along with a not-so-cleverly disguised attempt at what I guess would be public embarrassment. One member has suggested I would be thrown out of the state based on attitude.

I ask for nothing but critical thinking and problem solving.

You see, what I first addressed was reports of ADA lawsuits, and what I saw as posting editorially. Which is fine by me, but allow me to counterpoint. The most hilarious one was the report of a chain of stores being sued for some infractions. When I started to dissect it with an alternative view, the original poster, the guy that posted the report, followed on by telling us how unreliable the report was. That's here: http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/accessibility/12124-modell%92s-sporting-goods-alleging-ada-violations-2.html

Mission accomplished, Okie confused now.

Then we see a couple of articles where plaintiffs were suing for infractions, but a little Google fly-by and you start asking questions of "How can this be?" Or, did accessibility have anything to do with an injury or death? So I'm the guy that asked.

Then we get the Starbucks thing, and this floors me. Here's why.

You guys railing against me are obviously smart, well educated, well respected. Somewhere along the education line, there seems to be a fork, one that leans to intellectual free thought and problem solving, and one that leads to bureaucratic group-think. No thought at all was given to my remarks, only that I am trying to skirt the rules. That I am a cheater. The bureaucrat in you says "We have perfected these regulations. If you will just blindly comply you will live a life of ease." You instantly went right to guns. WE WANT THOSE COUNTERS COMPLIANT! OUR RULES ARE PERFECT.

I am simply saying, what if, WHAT IF, instead of costing tens of thousands of dollars of money that does not belong to you, what if by some simple merchandising, and where the product is served, this company could be 100% compliant. There would be no discrimination. You know, businesses are your friend. If you work for our governmental system, they are what pays for your existence. Helping them is conducive to your well being and success. Should you cost them money, they will rebuild and redesign, mark that off as an expense, and thus deprive this wonderful nation of more tax money. That's one way to look at it.

Now lets talk compliance and precision. You are going to have to, somehow, release that little intellectual evil genius in there and be open minded. I know you can do it.

I have done State work, as a contractor, for our wonderful education system. To those that say you have to think like an inspector, let me just say, I do. See, all this regular building stuff is amateur hour compared to a motivated state inspector. Let me briefly gloss over a fraction of what I know about precision inspections after just one project: The gap in the plywood is 1/8 inch, not larger or smaller. The nails, 10d commons, are to be nailed exactly 3/8 inch from the edge of the ply, at 6 inches, staggered. Not 6 1/4. 10,000 sq. ft.

Driving a 10d hanger nail into an a-35 modifies the hanger by enlarging the hole. The proper nail is 8d. Those thousands of a-35's... replace them. And oh, don't use the same layout, the holes are too big. All nails holes shall be predrilled 70% the diameter of the nail being used. So just toss that brand new Senco common nailer.

All your select treated sill lost it's grade stamp in the treating process. How do you know it's select? Can't use it.

ONANDONANDON. But I learned. Padded the hell out of the bid, and tripled the price, and was low bidder. Can any of you hold those standards to the work you have seen? Can a client withstand that cost layout?

Guess what... I got and passed those inspections. I learned precision. I can take your best shot. But it better be in the book, and that's why I'm on this forum. You all (not being accusatory here) who are inspectors have passed things that are not really compliant everyday. So you do the best you can do, and work with what God gave you.

How about being a free thinker. Let me posit a hypothetical; Lets say you get a business owner who comes to you with a plan to make his establishment more accessible. And lets say he is in some city spot with solid brick walls, a building built in 1926, and full of seismic retrofits. I mean steel bracing everywhere. Let's say because of those conditions, everything he tried to do fell short a couple of inches here and there. So he's not compliant, but *almost*. He's spending the long dollars to get on board. He's trying to make it easier. So he has some options. He could make half the ADA requirements in full, Or he could address all the ADA requirements, but not to full compliance. Which should he do?

Or, lets talk new construction. Let's just for the sake of argument say that some random architect, designs a modern building with lots of steel and concrete structure. Let's also say this guy is an ADA expert. Let's also suspend our disbelief and say he is the senior building official in this town. (This dude never sleeps. Busy busy bee.) Now let's say there was a screwup and there is a large steel structural element adjacent to the only ADA bathroom location.

The architect mislabeled something for dimensions, instead of pounds per foot, and now the steel is in the way. Moving the steel will cost 230,000. It's holding up 4 stories. But if we leave it where it is, all room and fixtures will fail ADA requirements by 1 inch. Or just 1/2 inch. It simply will not pass ADA scrutiny. What should this hapless man do? I mean, were only talking fractions here.

So... all I want to do is encourage free thinking and problem solving. Can we quickly and smartly correct an issue? Is every wheelchair accident caused by an uncaring tyrannical ADA hating despot? Is it ACTUALLY discrimination?

Are you an intellect or bureaucrat? Can we talk about the ADA spawning some unhealthy byproducts? Can we dialog with humor, and not insult each other? Cause I'm good at it.

Brent.

 

[jar546]

The above post offers an opinion. All of us have offered our opinion. Those that brought ADA lawsuits have done so for a multitude of reasons and those that never complied with ADA requirements, violated the rules for different reasons. None of us are going to change the opinions and reasons people do and do not do things if that makes sense. Brent, you are very passionate about this subject and it shows. There is nothing wrong with that. I too am passionate about this subject. There are probably underlying reasons why each of us are very passionate about this particular subject and it probably has nothing to do with ADA, but something else or another part of our lives. It called projection and is a term used in psychology.

We have always heard the term "the market will correct itself" and it appears to be true. In the case of ADA lawsuits, this too will probably correct itself over time. Until that time, we all have a job to do and for some of us that involves accessibility. I for one get audited every 3 years in every single town we do work in. Our audit is performed by the state of Pennsylvania and is specific to accessibility. Therefore, I average an audit about every 6 months. The state comes in and chooses commercial jobs that have received C/O's and sets up appointments to go out and inspect the building. If the grab bars are off by 1/4", I get written up. If the turning space is not compliant, I get written up. What this comes down to is that the inspector is being inspected and we do not have the ability to simply look the other way when others make mistakes.

It is our job to enforce a standard, not our personal beliefs. I have built code compliant houses, I have wired code compliant buildings. Most contractors do a pretty good job of meeting the minimum code standards and that is what they are, minimum standards. An installation either meets a minimum standard or it does not. I don't see what is so hard about doing things the right way and passing inspection. Most installations are spot on, yet others are way off the mark or partially off the mark and they must comply.

My interpretation of your overall opinion is almost as if you see no need for inspectors because inspectors represent authority and government, something that you are not fond of. You don't like being told what to do and never have. That is my interpretation based on what I am reading in your posts. I, of course, could be completely wrong or I could be spot on. It does not matter. We both live in a world where there are rules and rules for reasons. There are areas of the country that have very little rules other than federal rules but no one to enforce them. You are pointing out the "attitude" in the posts, yet yours has the same attitude but from your perspective.

Just as I have said before, if a water closet is at 19" from the wall, you will fail because you were given a 2" area to put it in. If you can't do rough in work within a 2" tolerance of 16"-18" to the center from a finished wall then maybe you are in the wrong career field. If you can't get your grab bars within the 3" height tolerance then maybe you are in the wrong field. If you struggle in your own mind to enforce these rules and spend more time trying to figure out ways to not have to write an obvious defect up then you may be in the wrong field. Sometimes it is hard to be what you hate,....authority.

 

[MASSDRIVER]

. <------point.

You missed it.

Just as a quick response, no on all that. What WE are is a team. WE are a process. A designer plans, the builder executes that vision, and the inspector is the qc guy. Part of that whole fun game for me, one of the reasons I like what I do, is challenging the qc guy to find something. And it happens, and I correct, and the process works. I'm not anti authority. I am however anti dipsh1tedness and think there are certain situations that warrent some "clearance". I've seen seen them.

But more later.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Can a wheel chair turn around in a 59.5 inch circumference? Can I access a tub that has 59 inches of clearance instead of 60? How many times has the rough openings been framed the backer board installed and then the tile that was specked out and ordered 9 months earlier arrive on site and the manufacturer changed there process and instead of being 1/4" thick is now 1/2". Does the reduced 1/2" clearance really deprive someone of a "right"? There are things that happen in the real world everyday that are beyond the control of the contractor and adjustments or decisions have to be made based on schedules and cost. Do we delay the job and opening date by 6 weeks while we reorder the tile? Some larger construction projects finish materials are ordered before the groundbreaking takes place. The days of having a large warehouse storing various products to be ordered are a thing of the past.

How many have been on a job where the framing is up 3 or 4 floors and the subs start installing their trade and it is discovered that there is not enough room in the 2x4 wall so it gets furred out another 3/4". It has to be made up somewhere within the building. These are the judgment call examples I am thinking about that may reduce a turning radius or opening for a tub. Nothing life safety, nothing that makes it unusable because those number are based on some study and then rounded up to the next whole number or count by 5. The whole code is pretty much that way.

 

[Mr. Inspector]

In PA we can't do judgement calls on Accessibilty, we could lose our cert and be out of a job. But they can go to the state appeals board. It only costs $100 and at least a month wait. It seems to me if they have a good case the appeals board let's almost anything go.

 

[mtlogcabin]

That is fine for you as an inspector but the PA appeals boards decision does not give the building/business owner a get out of jail card that will keep them from being sued under the DOJ authority.

Unlike the adopted building codes. Neither the ADA law or FHA have an appeals process that a building owner/contractor could use during the construction phase other than the courts and the courts only get involved when an aggrieved party files a suit.

It would be the same if someone came to a local appeals board because of the scenario I outlined above, and the board approved a 59" turning radius in a commercial restroom. The boards approval means nothing under the federal ADA laws. The owner could still be sued.

 

[jar546]

That is fine for you as an inspector but the PA appeals boards decision does not give the building/business owner a get out of jail card that will keep them from being sued under the DOJ authority. Unlike the adopted building codes. Neither the ADA law or FHA have an appeals process that a building owner/contractor could use during the construction phase other than the courts and the courts only get involved when an aggrieved party files a suit.

It would be the same if someone came to a local appeals board because of the scenario I outlined above, and the board approved a 59" turning radius in a commercial restroom. The boards approval means nothing under the federal ADA laws. The owner could still be sued.

You are correct and I always tell the applicant and RDPs that an appeal at the state level does not hold water with their obligation to the DOJ

 

[JPohling]

That is correct. So there should be no judgement calls on accessibility because you and others will then be open to litigation. Designers should give themselves an inch of extra room to to accommodate for these unforeseen field conditions or finish specification changes. Once again, most of these clearances are minimums, if it is oversize there is no issue.