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An average day
- Thread starter ICE
- Start date
Aha... Pushmatic panel, should replace with a FPE or Zinco to get with the times! 
Just had a rusty ol Pushmatic panel replaced here, had two 75amp main shut off breakers. You could actually shut off one 75 and the other side of the residence would still be energized, not good!
pc1
Just had a rusty ol Pushmatic panel replaced here, had two 75amp main shut off breakers. You could actually shut off one 75 and the other side of the residence would still be energized, not good!
pc1
The job is a service upgrade to accommodate PV. This is the old cabinet. You can see that it is a surface mount with KOs missing in the back.
This is the new cabinet. As you can see, it is also a surface mount and it's quite a bit longer than the old cabinet.
This is where the old cabinet was mounted over an old recessed cabinet. The plan was to place the new cabinet over the recessed cabinet/hole.
This method is practiced, mostly unimpeded, on a large scale. I turn it down every time. And every time, I hear "You've got to be kidding. I've done it this way for years and you're the first inspector to say no". I don't think that they are lying about that.
The contractors that do this are not all hacks and bandits either. I have inspected many jobs with clean, correct work...except for this one fatal flaw. The disappointment on their faces tells me that they don't see anything wrong with this.
In as much as this happens so often and I am convinced that I stand alone with this correction, I am thinking that I might just lay off. You know, what the Hell, houses aren't burning down....so many are past their expiration date anyway....why should I keep pi$$ing these people off?
This is the new cabinet. As you can see, it is also a surface mount and it's quite a bit longer than the old cabinet.
This is where the old cabinet was mounted over an old recessed cabinet. The plan was to place the new cabinet over the recessed cabinet/hole.
This method is practiced, mostly unimpeded, on a large scale. I turn it down every time. And every time, I hear "You've got to be kidding. I've done it this way for years and you're the first inspector to say no". I don't think that they are lying about that.
The contractors that do this are not all hacks and bandits either. I have inspected many jobs with clean, correct work...except for this one fatal flaw. The disappointment on their faces tells me that they don't see anything wrong with this.
In as much as this happens so often and I am convinced that I stand alone with this correction, I am thinking that I might just lay off. You know, what the Hell, houses aren't burning down....so many are past their expiration date anyway....why should I keep pi$$ing these people off?
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north star
MODERATOR
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2009
- Messages
- 4,596
~ & ~ & ~
correctly.......If you are "standing alone", that makes you a very, very valuable
Code Sheriff !.............Besides, who is going to [ at least ] attempt to try to keep
the contractors somewhat honest & compliant ?
Also, ...in looking at all of your posted photos & commentaries, ...you; my Forum
friend, are in your element !...........I would say that your present position is your
ministry [ i.e. - trying to make a positive difference in your community ].
I say, ...keep on fighting mediocrity, whenever and wherever you can.
We appreciate all of your efforts on here.
~ & ~ & ~
Shirley you are not not considering "laying off" ! :-o......I thought that you wereon a mission.........You have already created an atmosphere of wanting things done
correctly.......If you are "standing alone", that makes you a very, very valuable
Code Sheriff !.............Besides, who is going to [ at least ] attempt to try to keep
the contractors somewhat honest & compliant ?
Also, ...in looking at all of your posted photos & commentaries, ...you; my Forum
friend, are in your element !...........I would say that your present position is your
ministry [ i.e. - trying to make a positive difference in your community ].
I say, ...keep on fighting mediocrity, whenever and wherever you can.
We appreciate all of your efforts on here.
~ & ~ & ~
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ICE,
The code ministry is calling, please change your handle to "GOD of CODES" or "CODE GOD!" or like Northstar suggested "Code Sheriff". ICE sounds like some kind of new drug name.
First photo of the old box has the Zinco breakers, the home inspectors here tell the homeowners they need to be replaced.
pc1
The code ministry is calling, please change your handle to "GOD of CODES" or "CODE GOD!" or like Northstar suggested "Code Sheriff". ICE sounds like some kind of new drug name.
First photo of the old box has the Zinco breakers, the home inspectors here tell the homeowners they need to be replaced.
pc1
MASSDRIVER
REGISTERED
The title of "Code God" has already been self ascribed by a member on this forum,as well as all it's implied forms and iterations.
Brent
Brent
mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
Ice
We will be taking over electrical from the state so I have been using your photos and discussing them with my inspector who will be doing the electrical inspections. He agrees with you it is wrong because the recessed box becomes an inaccessible junction box when the new surface panel is installed over it. His suggestion was install an outside weather resistant gutter box to use as the junction and then install the new panel above it.
He did mention the state has allowed this practice for past 15 years he has been doing electrical work. So it is not uncommon
We will be taking over electrical from the state so I have been using your photos and discussing them with my inspector who will be doing the electrical inspections. He agrees with you it is wrong because the recessed box becomes an inaccessible junction box when the new surface panel is installed over it. His suggestion was install an outside weather resistant gutter box to use as the junction and then install the new panel above it.
He did mention the state has allowed this practice for past 15 years he has been doing electrical work. So it is not uncommon
There is a requirement for an accessible J-box, however I would not call the old cabinet a J-box.mtlogcabin said:
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The first time I turned this down was the first time that I encountered it. I was a new inspector with a large organization. I didn't know that I was going to be alone on this. Of course I heard the whine that I am the only inspector that does this but I get that a lot and most of the time it is BS. After more than a few of these, the contractors went over my head to the Electrical Section head engineer. That still happens after all these years. My correction stands. But if you think about it, the engineer couldn't say otherwise.mtlogcabin said:
Several times I have asked the head engineer to send a bulletin to each district office and every inspector explaining the problem and the correct way to deal with it. I was told to prepare a draft with pictures, which I did. Nothing has been sent. I quit asking.
So I still turn it down....not just because it is wrong. I do it because it can be so wrong.
Here's a good example that I have posted previously. The cabinet is mounted over 16 gauge sheet steel which has been placed over the existing recessed cabinet. I was assured that the sheet steel was caulked to the building and water can't get in. It seems that any time silicone caulk is used, leaks are an impossibility.
They swore up and down that there were no splices in the wall. I said show me...so they did by cutting through a bedroom wall.
They were somehow convinced that if they opened the wall and there were no splices, I would have to approve the work.
If service cabinets are allowed over existing recessed cabinets and holes, nobody is looking at what's in the wall.
This is the kind of stuff that is left in walls when nobody is looking.
The correction isn't a small thing. The entire job must be done over. Too often the cabinet won't work and must be replaced. The contractor loses the customer's confidence. And probably any referrals. That could hurt in a small jurisdiction.
Well then mtlogcabin, you are a levelheaded guy that "gets it" and I would like to know how you handle this when it's your turn at bat.
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There's about 30 of these.
There's about 40 of these. I probably shouldn't inspect these when it's raining but it beats sitting around an office.
There's a couple dozen of these.
They always act like I am crazy when I require a torque wrench.. They never have one. They always say that the company has only one and it is on another job.
The kid told me that he didn't crank them too tight and the lugs are made that way. I asked him to remove one and kept it.
He and I were standing on the roof when his phone rang. It was his boss. The kid told the boss that they didn't pass inspection by a long shot. Then I heard him say, "Oh by the way, I left the gate open and the customers dog took off". I guess the boss didn't like hearing that....The last I saw of the kid, he was running down the middle of the street. I left the correction slips on his windshield.
There's about 40 of these. I probably shouldn't inspect these when it's raining but it beats sitting around an office.
There's a couple dozen of these.
They always act like I am crazy when I require a torque wrench.. They never have one. They always say that the company has only one and it is on another job.
The kid told me that he didn't crank them too tight and the lugs are made that way. I asked him to remove one and kept it.
He and I were standing on the roof when his phone rang. It was his boss. The kid told the boss that they didn't pass inspection by a long shot. Then I heard him say, "Oh by the way, I left the gate open and the customers dog took off". I guess the boss didn't like hearing that....The last I saw of the kid, he was running down the middle of the street. I left the correction slips on his windshield.
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mmmarvel
MODERATOR
They always act like I am crazy when I require a torque wrench.. They never have one. They always say that the company has only one and it is on another job.
You really want to see them go nuts?? Ask when the last time the torque wrench was calibrated? Ask for the paperwork on it. The look on their faces is priceless.
You really want to see them go nuts?? Ask when the last time the torque wrench was calibrated? Ask for the paperwork on it. The look on their faces is priceless.
I was there for a rough inspection on roof-top PV. I always ask to see the service at the rough inspection.
The cord and plug is there in case they want to power the house with a generator.
That attachment plug is filled with water....and is energized.
The panel dead-front is missing but the owner says "not to worry, it's in the back yard somewhere".
The cord and plug is there in case they want to power the house with a generator.
That attachment plug is filled with water....and is energized.
The panel dead-front is missing but the owner says "not to worry, it's in the back yard somewhere".
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TheCommish
SAWHORSE
to me either the conductor is to small for the fitting of the screw is at an angle that may prohibit proper tightening to the conductor
Phil
REGISTERED
e Hilton
It looks like the screw was over tightened and this bent the lug. (Notice the tilted screw)
It looks like the screw was over tightened and this bent the lug. (Notice the tilted screw)
TheCommish
SAWHORSE
no stress marks on this one
ICE said:The kid told me that he didn't crank them too tight and the lugs are made that way. I asked him to remove one and kept it.
No stress marks but obviously bent.
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TheCommish
SAWHORSE
Hmm, how did they bend it with a small conductor?
Mech
REGISTERED
Manufacturing process defect?
It was bent with a screw driver. I removed the setscrew and tried to thread it in upside down. It will not work because the screwdriver forced apart the sides of the slot. Force applied to the setscrew is what bent the body of the lug.TheCommish said:
Pcinspector1 said:
To be used for grounding PV panels and rack, the lugs must be listed to Standard #2703. This is an Ilsco product.
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TheCommish
SAWHORSE
gorilla electricians
ICE said: