JBI
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Re: Building Designer plans - Is an RDP stamp required?
Kil - Where is it you live? Geico City? :lol:
Kil - Where is it you live? Geico City? :lol:
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Building Designer plans - Is an RDP stamp required?
- Thread starter RickAstoria
- Start date
RickAstoria
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- Joined
- Oct 17, 2009
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Re: Building Designer plans - Is an RDP stamp required?
It is exempt under state law but standards like ACI 318 or other accepted standards shall be met by the person of responsible charge of preparing the plans.
Some other states does not have the exemption under both laws.
Yes, but I don't always have to follow prescriptive path. We do remember that single family residences are exempt under both the architectural (ORS 671) and engineering (ORS 672) laws when it comes to making plans and specifications for. Structural calculation is part of making plans and specification. Performing structural calculations IS the heart of "structural engineering". In performing any such calculations implies applying the knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences in determining specifications. So to design an ICF wall system for houses or a trussed roof system or a lamella or another type of space frame roof system for S.F.R.s that is not prescriptive is to apply the knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences to make plans and specifications for such systems for s.f.r.s - to accepted standards.kilitact said:
It is exempt under state law but standards like ACI 318 or other accepted standards shall be met by the person of responsible charge of preparing the plans.
Some other states does not have the exemption under both laws.
RickAstoria
-------------------
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2009
- Messages
- 531
Re: Building Designer plans - Is an RDP stamp required?
Is making floor plans and elevations and section details and processing a client's project criteria into a complete set of construction plans, architecture? Technically, it is. Architecture has two meanings. A global and universal meaning AND the meaning as applied to the context. THIS is why ORS 671.030 and ORS 672.060 are called "exemptions" or "exceptions".
Every time you calculate the size a building component for a particular load, that is engineering or applying knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences.
I can practice the service of structural and infrastructural calculations in accordance to accepted industry standards such as ASCE, ACI318, and other standards as it pertains to the performance of building design work. We all know architecture is the art and science of designing buildings. Building Design is just that. Design is not just art but also science, Kil.
No, I can't design roadways, transportation tunnels, bridges and no I can not apply my services to NON-EXEMPT buildings/structures. I may not call myself an engineer or architect by title. However, I am allowed by law to do ABSOLUTELY everything that pertains to the designing of exempt buildings and it's components. When it comes to S.F.R.s and other exempt buildings in Oregon, it is NOT required by state law to have an architect or engineer's stamp ANYWHERE on the drawing sets of the building. There is for civil engineering work and land surveying work and geologist/geotechnical engineer work. But for the building itself. No. If it is an exempt building, then it is exempt from the stamp/seal requirement.
Am I going to argue if you require an incompetent home owner or an idiot of a designer who couldn't design to have an architect or engineer. No. If they could not perform the design work correctly or make the corrections adequately after the plans were rejected for non-compliance then you have reasonable grounds to require the person to have an engineer perform the portions needing an engineer.
Engineering is a science and application of that scientific knowledge happens all the time when a person designs any and every building. How much varies. When you apply the knowledge of math and physics to the design of buildings/structures and its components then that is engineering science. When it comes to OSBEELS, the issue isn't about if someone applies these skills and knowledge on exempt buildings. They can care less. They care about title use and advertising the service in a manner that says they may perform these services on any building or structure. That is not what I am saying.
Building Design is technically architecture & engineering even on exempt buildings. However, it is not a violation to perform building design on exempt buildings. If you want a beam to span 20-ft. and you specify that the beam shall be 5-ply 2x12 beam. Then how how arrived to that is engineering. What makes the difference is how one calls themselves and what buildings they provide their service to and how they advertise their services.
I have the stance that I can make plans and specification (and that includes making structural calculations as it is pertinent to exempt buildings. To the same extent that I may make plans under architect law. I'm not "practicing engineering" or "practicing architecture" as far as licensing boards are concern if my services is ONLY for exempt buildings and I don't advertise my services using the words "architecture" or "engineering".kilitact said:
Is making floor plans and elevations and section details and processing a client's project criteria into a complete set of construction plans, architecture? Technically, it is. Architecture has two meanings. A global and universal meaning AND the meaning as applied to the context. THIS is why ORS 671.030 and ORS 672.060 are called "exemptions" or "exceptions".
Every time you calculate the size a building component for a particular load, that is engineering or applying knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences.
I can practice the service of structural and infrastructural calculations in accordance to accepted industry standards such as ASCE, ACI318, and other standards as it pertains to the performance of building design work. We all know architecture is the art and science of designing buildings. Building Design is just that. Design is not just art but also science, Kil.
No, I can't design roadways, transportation tunnels, bridges and no I can not apply my services to NON-EXEMPT buildings/structures. I may not call myself an engineer or architect by title. However, I am allowed by law to do ABSOLUTELY everything that pertains to the designing of exempt buildings and it's components. When it comes to S.F.R.s and other exempt buildings in Oregon, it is NOT required by state law to have an architect or engineer's stamp ANYWHERE on the drawing sets of the building. There is for civil engineering work and land surveying work and geologist/geotechnical engineer work. But for the building itself. No. If it is an exempt building, then it is exempt from the stamp/seal requirement.
Am I going to argue if you require an incompetent home owner or an idiot of a designer who couldn't design to have an architect or engineer. No. If they could not perform the design work correctly or make the corrections adequately after the plans were rejected for non-compliance then you have reasonable grounds to require the person to have an engineer perform the portions needing an engineer.
Engineering is a science and application of that scientific knowledge happens all the time when a person designs any and every building. How much varies. When you apply the knowledge of math and physics to the design of buildings/structures and its components then that is engineering science. When it comes to OSBEELS, the issue isn't about if someone applies these skills and knowledge on exempt buildings. They can care less. They care about title use and advertising the service in a manner that says they may perform these services on any building or structure. That is not what I am saying.
Building Design is technically architecture & engineering even on exempt buildings. However, it is not a violation to perform building design on exempt buildings. If you want a beam to span 20-ft. and you specify that the beam shall be 5-ply 2x12 beam. Then how how arrived to that is engineering. What makes the difference is how one calls themselves and what buildings they provide their service to and how they advertise their services.
Re: Building Designer plans - Is an RDP stamp required?
well; if you tried to submit engineering in this jurisdiction or most of the other jurisdiction in oregon we would tell you to get professional help. In astoria and where else they have allowed you to submit designs. the engineers commentary that you posted was clear.
well; if you tried to submit engineering in this jurisdiction or most of the other jurisdiction in oregon we would tell you to get professional help. In astoria and where else they have allowed you to submit designs. the engineers commentary that you posted was clear.
RickAstoria
-------------------
- Joined
- Oct 17, 2009
- Messages
- 531
Re: Building Designer plans - Is an RDP stamp required?
It would be adequate but I didn't specify it earlier. Since the joists would be spanning in the transverse direction at 2x8 @ 16" o.c. for a span of about 7'-4". This would be adequate design.
I would give a more detailed calculation and we already have some span tables to build calculations from.
Most jurisdiction will accept good, professional calculations that backs such. If the building is exempt, it is exempt and they will want good calcs. I won't give calc sheets examples since alot of the algebraic / calculus and engineering/physics symbols are not available on normal keyboard keys and I can't easily type those in. Those I do by hand because it is harder to memorize the ALT+### codes to type those in. I would have to scan handwritten calcs and then there is the graphical representation.
First off, if I design something, it is going to be correct. If I can't do it right and verify that the math is right before submission, THE FIRST TIME, I wouldn't do it. I would hire an RDP and therefore you wouldn't see these miscalcs from me. Before I design a truss or a space frame, I study it to the point in which I can perform the calcs and verify the math before submission. There is NEVER a deadline for submission. Only if you make it for yourself. It is better to have it done right the first time submitted then have flaws in the calcs. There are a myriad of different matters to contend with but it would be my responsibility as the designer of the building to address those issues. That is part of the standard of professional care that DOES apply to me. Failure to do so can result in negligence and lacks being prudent. For me, it doesn't matter how I attain the knowledge to calculate the trusses or space frames or built-up beams or any other system component. It is that you attain it and perform it correctly. That is all that actually matters. If you fail or can not perform it correctly and you fail to perform it correctly then you are liable for damages that results in your bad judgment and actions may be prosecuted against you.
You don't have to be in college to learn the math. That is what 95% of engineering is. Math in applied scientific/physics form. The rest is judgment. Common engineering practice is about how little a person can get by with while structurally meeting the load conditions. I avoid such minimalistic methods whenever possible.
Enough said there.
rktect 1, you bring an interesting point. I didn't outline all the conditions and all the specifications for brevity sake in the previous post. The reason for beams (with supporting posts) when you are supporting a floor joist system is forming a grid of beams and joist. Beams work in the transverse direction of the joists its supporting - primarily to keep joist unsupported span down as small as possible. The way the floor collapses can be a nature of numerous debates.
Of course, there is more to calculating the beam span then I shown above but for brevity sake, I didn't point out the load condition but we can easily take 40 lb. live load, 10 or 20 lb. dead load. I also didn't specify the o.c. spacing for the beams. Suppose we have the beams spaced 8' o.c.kilitact said:
It would be adequate but I didn't specify it earlier. Since the joists would be spanning in the transverse direction at 2x8 @ 16" o.c. for a span of about 7'-4". This would be adequate design.
I would give a more detailed calculation and we already have some span tables to build calculations from.
Most jurisdiction will accept good, professional calculations that backs such. If the building is exempt, it is exempt and they will want good calcs. I won't give calc sheets examples since alot of the algebraic / calculus and engineering/physics symbols are not available on normal keyboard keys and I can't easily type those in. Those I do by hand because it is harder to memorize the ALT+### codes to type those in. I would have to scan handwritten calcs and then there is the graphical representation.
First off, if I design something, it is going to be correct. If I can't do it right and verify that the math is right before submission, THE FIRST TIME, I wouldn't do it. I would hire an RDP and therefore you wouldn't see these miscalcs from me. Before I design a truss or a space frame, I study it to the point in which I can perform the calcs and verify the math before submission. There is NEVER a deadline for submission. Only if you make it for yourself. It is better to have it done right the first time submitted then have flaws in the calcs. There are a myriad of different matters to contend with but it would be my responsibility as the designer of the building to address those issues. That is part of the standard of professional care that DOES apply to me. Failure to do so can result in negligence and lacks being prudent. For me, it doesn't matter how I attain the knowledge to calculate the trusses or space frames or built-up beams or any other system component. It is that you attain it and perform it correctly. That is all that actually matters. If you fail or can not perform it correctly and you fail to perform it correctly then you are liable for damages that results in your bad judgment and actions may be prosecuted against you.
You don't have to be in college to learn the math. That is what 95% of engineering is. Math in applied scientific/physics form. The rest is judgment. Common engineering practice is about how little a person can get by with while structurally meeting the load conditions. I avoid such minimalistic methods whenever possible.
Enough said there.
rktect 1, you bring an interesting point. I didn't outline all the conditions and all the specifications for brevity sake in the previous post. The reason for beams (with supporting posts) when you are supporting a floor joist system is forming a grid of beams and joist. Beams work in the transverse direction of the joists its supporting - primarily to keep joist unsupported span down as small as possible. The way the floor collapses can be a nature of numerous debates.