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Can an exit serve two buildings and be a separate building in and of itself?

Remember the only reason the designer wants to call it a separate building is to get around the requirements of TABLE 1021.2

STORIES WITH ONE EXIT which limit him to 4 dwelling units per floor. He wants to use the verticle exit enclosure as a means to do this.

A horizontial exit is not a mandatory requirement it is a designers option to use in large buildings when needed to meet exiting requirements.

I believe the AHJ under 104.11 has the ability to approve such a design. She may want additional recorded documents to assure the 3 structures operate as a single unit for the life of the building.

Personally I probably would not allow it and advise them to go to the board of appeals to approve the alternate design.
 
JustReid said:
I think in this case it would be an exit enclosure. The designer could simply state that they are not using it as a horizontal exit because they are not required to. They would only designate it as a horizontal exit if they needed to obtain the benefit of a horizontal exit. In this particular case they can not make it a horizontal exit because it is a single exit and horizontal exits can not serve that purpose. And they do not need to because it is an exit stair. So it is an exit by a different definition. It would be nice to have a plan for the discussion because we could all be picturing something different.
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Exiting from one building by passing into another is a horizontal exit.
 
However, any exit through a fire wall, or in some cases fire barriers, is indeed a horizontal exit (by design or default), and shall be treated as such.
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Disagree

Door openings in Fire Walls and Fire Barriers do not automatically create a horizontal exit

FIRE BARRIER. A fire-resistance-rated wall assembly of materials designed to restrict the spread of fire in which continuity is maintained.

FIRE WALL. A fire-resistance-rated wall having protected openings, which restricts the spread of fire and extends continuously from the foundation to or through the roof, with sufficient structural stability under fire conditions to allow collapse of construction on either side without collapse of the wall.
 
Papio Bldg Dept said:
While it is true that not all openings in a fire wall/barrier are horizontal exits, all exits in fire walls/barriers are horizontal exits.
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Unless it is an exit enclosure. Otherwise all exit stairs would be horizontal exits.

I don't think it is looking for a loop hole. The designer is given code compliant tools to use when designing. Different exit options are available to them. Hence, using it at their choice. I think the really big topic here is whether or not "buildings" by 503.1 need to have their own separate means of egress system. I know 503.1 says for the purpose of height and area but does the code say anything about exiting? (Other than in the definition of Horizontal Exit). I think ICC would have made the determination more clear rather than nesting it in the definition of horizontal exit. Maybe not though.
 
JustReid said:
Unless it is an exit enclosure. Otherwise all exit stairs would be horizontal exits.
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ICC does not stand for intentionally clear and concise. All buildings, and areas, need, at a minimum at least one means of egress, and are permitted to share that means of egress system in compliance with the various components provided for in the code. Some may be used at the discretion of the designer, and others are a requirement based upon other choices made by the designer (i.e., building area, height, number of exits, travel distances, etc.).

Not all exit enclosures are required to be fire walls. In the OP case, the exit enclosure would only need to be rated up to 1 hour, and thereby not a horizontal exit. The OP is attempting to loop hole the requirement for two means of egress by creating a horizontal exit into a separate building. Hard for me to see it any other way, regardless of my want to.
 
JustReid said:
Unless it is an exit enclosure. Otherwise all exit stairs would be horizontal exits. I don't think it is looking for a loop hole. The designer is given code compliant tools to use when designing. Different exit options are available to them. Hence, using it at their choice. I think the really big topic here is whether or not "buildings" by 503.1 need to have their own separate means of egress system. I know 503.1 says for the purpose of height and area but does the code say anything about exiting? (Other than in the definition of Horizontal Exit). I think ICC would have made the determination more clear rather than nesting it in the definition of horizontal exit. Maybe not though.
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I think you hit the point. If the DP separates per 503.1 then, by a strict application, the separate building must be provided at least 1 exit (two buildings two exits). Setting that issue aside if the DP separates at both sides of a single set of exterior exit stairs then there is a case for a horizontal exit serving the 3 dwellings located on the upper floors. I don't think I would want to make a preliminary determination that the scheme works. I would ask for an interpretation from the authors of the code, the appeals board, every reviewer I know and strangers on the street. It is quite creative however.
 
mtlogcabin said:
DisagreeDoor openings in Fire Walls and Fire Barriers do not automatically create a horizontal exit
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1022.2 (2006 IBC) Separation. The separation between buildings or refuge areas connected by a horizontal exit shall be provided by a fire wall complying with Section 705 or a fire barrier complying with Section 706 and having a fire-resistance rating of not less than 2 hours.

Not all exits through fire barriers are horizontal exits, true, but in some cases, they may be. Exits through a fire wall, by definition are horizontal exits.
 
Papio Bldg Dept said:
ICC does not stand for intentionally clear and concise.
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We are in 100% agreement about this. :agree

On the other stuff, I guess I will have to look into it more to see if I can understand it better.

It would have been nice to be discussing actual plans but... I hope that the answer is completely clear for ewenme now;)
 
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mtlogcabin said:
DisagreeDoor openings in Fire Walls and Fire Barriers do not automatically create a horizontal exit
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1022.2 (2006 IBC) Separation. The separation between buildings or refuge areas connected by a horizontal exit shall be provided by a fire wall complying with Section 705 or a fire barrier complying with Section 706 and having a fire-resistance rating of not less than 2 hours.

Not all exits through fire barriers are horizontal exits, true, but in some cases, they may be. Exits through a fire wall, by definition are horizontal exits.
 
AAAAAaaaahhh.... finally getting to the point! JustReid and Imhotep... now you understand my original question. Papio: your explanation of what ICC does not stand for is perfect! I am still in doubt as to whether one verticle exit enclosure can serve two buildings, and I'm not inclined to give on the 'two exits are required'. This discussion has been most instructional and interesting. I think I'm in good company when it comes to code analysis.

And, Building Bob, your drawings give me pause, because you interpreted what I put in verbiage totally differently than I intended the verbiage to describe. Just shows that perspectives can differ when it comes to 'seeing' what you're thinking. I thought I described a long narrow building with balconies on one long face with the verticle exit in the middle. The U-shaped building completely threw me! I made some drawings to post, but they were too large, ever after reducing. I think I tried to use too much color. I'll work on that.

And whoever called me Shirley...I'm not Shirley. :)
 
Perhaps Alora meant to say - surely in stead of - Shirley

Surely, someone in Moscow, ID has to have a scanner.
 
Ted Striker: Surely you can't be serious.

Rumack: I am serious... and don't call me

Shirley.

Airplane was a great movie.
 
Could be the start of a new migration thread.

What is the air speed of an unladen 747?
 
gbhammer said:
Ah those groans might just be music to the ears of some.
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I want the kids in bed by nine, the yard watered, the dog fed, and the gate locked and get a note to the milkman NO MORE CHEESE!
 
mtlogcabin said:
DisagreeDoor openings in Fire Walls and Fire Barriers do not automatically create a horizontal exit

FIRE BARRIER. A fire-resistance-rated wall assembly of materials designed to restrict the spread of fire in which continuity is maintained.

FIRE WALL. A fire-resistance-rated wall having protected openings, which restricts the spread of fire and extends continuously from the foundation to or through the roof, with sufficient structural stability under fire conditions to allow collapse of construction on either side without collapse of the wall.
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First, I said "Exiting by".

Second a fire barrier does not create a horizontal exit nor does it separate buildings.
 
ewenme said:
I am still in doubt as to whether one verticle exit enclosure can serve two buildings
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It could, but not as the only exit from either building or both buildings.
 
ewenme said:
And, Building Bob, your drawings give me pause, because you interpreted what I put in verbiage totally differently than I intended the verbiage to describe. Just shows that perspectives can differ when it comes to 'seeing' what you're thinking. I thought I described a long narrow building with balconies on one long face with the verticle exit in the middle. The U-shaped building completely threw me! I made some drawings to post, but they were too large, ever after reducing. I think I tried to use too much color. I'll work on that.
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I have to upload to photobucket or some other third party entity, that is the only way I can post the diagrams, I cannot do it directly from my computer.....Hope that helps.

BTW, I understand that some people have had issues with some of the third party file sites, just ensure the virus guard is active and up to date.
 
"BTW, I understand that some people have had issues with some of the third party file sites, just ensure the virusguard is active and up to date."
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I agree with BB on this. Be very careful of some of the 3rd party storage sites. Carol, is thereany way that you could upload a very basic drawing without the colors, ..something similar to

a "paper napkin drawing" type submittal?

Also, I would be very hesitant to approve a single exit "only" in this scenario. Remember, emergency personnel may be going up that same set of exit stairs, in addition to occupants coming down.

.
 
OK, let's take this a little further and see what happens.

Picture a series of 20' x 30' apartments all in a row with a fire wall on one side. There is less than 50' travel distance within each unit. Once you step through the door that some say isn't a horizontal exit you are in another building with a balcony and a single exit stair. Since that building is an exit, there is no limit on travel distance within the exit.

How many apartments are allowed to share this single exit stair in the separate building?

4?

6?

10?

100?

No limit?
 
How many apartments are allowed to share this single exit stair in the separate building?
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The number of dwelling units would be restricted by the 50 foot travel distance and design.

The level of protection in this separate building verticle exit enclosure by code is significantly increased over the minimum 1 hour requirement 45 min door

to 2 hours 90 min door and the ability to meet:

706.2 Structural stability.

Fire walls shall have sufficient structural stability under fire conditions to allow collapse of construction on either side without collapse of the wall for the duration of time indicated by the required fire-resistance rating
 
Paul Sweet said:
OK, let's take this a little further and see what happens.Picture a series of 20' x 30' apartments all in a row with a fire wall on one side. There is less than 50' travel distance within each unit. Once you step through the door that some say isn't a horizontal exit you are in another building with a balcony and a single exit stair. Since that building is an exit, there is no limit on travel distance within the exit.

How many apartments are allowed to share this single exit stair in the separate building?

4?

6?

10?

100?

No limit?
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Would this scenario look something like your birdhouse picture?
 
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