Cutting codes to cut costs of construction

[mark handler]

That simply means it makes sense in some areas, but not in others. Jurisdictions with adequate municipal water sprinklers likely aren't much of a big deal. For those of us without...it gets expensive really fast.

So much for "national codes".

 

[SCBO1]

Coder, does your area require the residential sprinklers? Additional cost that could be amended out by your council unless State mandated.

 

[Coder]

Coder, does your area require the residential sprinklers? Additional cost that could be amended out by your council unless State mandated.

We currently require sprinklers in everything residential except single family dwellings. Here is the introduction to a recent memo being drafted to Council regarding the Fire Marshal's and my take on getting rid of sprinklers. Not happening as far as we are concerned.
Introduction:

At the end of August 2018, the City received the “Land Development Code Diagnosis” Final Report from Cascadia Partners. One of the recommendations given in the report was to “Align Building Code and Zoning.” The specific issue mentioned was regarding the removal of fire suppression system requirements from the IRC in buildings with up to 4 residential units. With the nature of the modern fire environment, residential fuel loading and lightweight construction materials, staff is not comfortable recommending this change. We feel that the potential benefits of having a residential sprinkler system in place far outweigh the cost. Fire suppression systems have been proven to save lives and we feel that removing these systems from the code is akin to playing the odds that there will not be a fire in these newer residences.


As a result, we began to look at other avenues to reduce the cost and increase the feasibility of creating more dwelling units without affecting life safety. After speaking with several contractors and looking at the construction process, we believe that the best building and fire code related avenue to reduce costs is through a set of amendments to the currently adopted 2015 International Energy Conservation Code (IECC).

 

[tmurray]

So much for "national codes".

National code in that it is a minimum. Local jurisdictions can and do have more restrictive requirements through provincial acts and municipal by-laws. For instance, we require a building permit for most construction. There is no requirement in our code for a building permit. We require a back flow preventer on all sewer lines. The plumbing code only requires them on lines that may be subject to surcharge.

 

[mtlogcabin]

The JTG found that installing sprinklers in houses in most Canadian locations would cost between $4 500 and $17 000 per house with installed price highest in rural and remote locations

 

[mtlogcabin]

We feel that the potential benefits of having a residential sprinkler system in place far outweigh the cost. Fire suppression systems have been proven to save lives and we feel that removing these systems from the code is akin to playing the odds that there will not be a fire in these newer residences.

I find it sad that so many things today are based on "feelings" in lieu of hard empirical data and that very few will entertain the idea that there may be an acceptable number of loss of live when considering adopting codes and laws trying to prevent loss of life.

 

[Coder]

acceptable number of loss of live

As a Code Official, Is there such a thing?

 

[SCBO1]

Coder, I got one more for ya!, How bout reducing the minimum square footage of a residential home, they'll love you.

If a home is priced out by the square foot you can show this to the council and be done with this exercise and still get to go on vacation! That's what they want, to reduce the cost of construction.

 

[Mark K]

Building codes reflect and implicit tradeoff between loss of life and cost of construction.

The governmental entity adopting the Building Code establishes the nature of this tradeoff.

The role of the building official is to enforce the adopted regulations whether or not the building official agrees with the tradeoffs.

 

[steveray]

As a Code Official, Is there such a thing?

Absolutely....Otherwise we would eliminate stairs...

 

[tmurray]

Absolutely....Otherwise we would eliminate stairs...

And require non-combustible construction...

 

[mtlogcabin]

As a Code Official, Is there such a thing?

Absolutely...............The intent of the code even states it
[A] 101.3 Intent.
The purpose of this code is to establish the minimum requirements to provide a reasonable level of safety, public health and general welfare through structural strength, means of egress facilities, stability, sanitation, adequate light and ventilation, energy conservation, and safety to life and property from fire, explosion and other hazards, and to provide a reasonable level of safety to fire fighters and emergency responders during emergency operations.

What becomes unreasonable is a desire to try to save every puppy in the pound by requiring something that will have minimal impact in achieving that desire.
Locking caps on Freon refrigeration systems is another "feeling" driven code requirement to try and save people from doing stupid things while committing a criminal act.

 

[Coder]

I guess thats why automatic fire sprinklers are required by code and shouldn't be amended out. They provide a reasonable level of safety.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Consider this:

• Each year, over 2,300 home fire deaths occur in more than 365,000 reported structure fires. Therefore, the likelihood of surviving a home fire is approximately 99% without regard to the presence of smoke alarms or any other fire safety provisions. Does that mean 2,300 deaths are acceptable? Most people would say no.
• Each year, there are an estimated 12,000 deaths due to falls in homes and an estimated 11 million fall injuries in the home. The likelihood of surviving a fall is therefore 99.9%. Does that mean 12,000 deaths are acceptable? Most people would say no.
• Each year, there are an estimated 42,000 deaths due to motor vehicle crashes and an estimated 6 million reported motor vehicle crashes. The likelihood of surviving a motor vehicle crash is 99%. Does that mean 42,000 deaths are acceptable? Most people would say no.

Change the numbers to percentages and 3/10 of 1% does sound acceptable for fire deaths
or 1/10 of 1% for death due to falls in homes
or 7/10 of 1% for motor vehicle crashes

Numbers will drive more emotions than percentages when making reasonable decisions

rea·son·a·ble
Dictionary result for reasonable
/ˈrēz(ə)nəb(ə)l/
adjective

1. 1.
   (of a person) having sound judgment; fair and sensible.
   "no reasonable person could have objected"
   synonyms: sensible, rational, open to reason, full of common sense, logical, fair, fair-minded, just, equitable, decent; More
   
   • 
     
     
   • 
     
2. 2.
   as much as is appropriate or fair; moderate.
   "a police officer may use reasonable force to gain entry"
   synonyms: within reason, practicable, sensible;
   appropriate, suitable, fitting, proper

 

[fatboy]

Fatboy:

I know nothing of Colorado law, but if you were in California you could, and should go to jail, from what Mountain Man says Montana is like California, so you better look at what you are doing.

I am going nowhere sport.

Not from Montana, in Colorado.

 

[conarb]

I am going nowhere sport.

Not from Montana, in Colorado.

Any government employee who takes money for a permit and diverts it to another department belongs in jail, it's the same as pointing a gun at his head and taking his money, just like all the inspectors here who took bribe money from the sprinkler coalition to go to Minneapolis and vote for sprinklers deserved to be put in jail.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Conarb
It is not the government employee within the building department who is diverting the money from building departments to fund other departments it is the elected officials and possibly the city/county manager who is leading the elected officials down this path all in the name of keeping tax rates down.
Don't blame fatboy and others who have to work within a system that has been created by others and those who came before him

When I came to work here the building department sent 39% of building permit fees to the fire department to do plan reviews and inspections on sprinklers and alarm systems.
The bottom fell out in 09 a new city manager came in. She took the 39% away from the fire department and gave it back to us disbanded the fire prevention division of the fire department. Laid off the fire marshal, put one guy back on the truck and sent the other to me. (he started as a building inspector) Gave my department 1/2 a year salary from the general fund to cover fire inspections and we started to do the fire sprinkler and alarm plan reviews and issue permits. The first year out even as slow as it was the fees covered the salary of the one man I was given.
With the right ethical leadership at the top the system can be changed

 

[conarb]

Conarb
It is not the government employee within the building department who is diverting the money from building departments to fund other departments it is the elected officials and possibly the city/county manager who is leading the elected officials down this path all in the name of keeping tax rates down.
Don't blame fatboy and others who have to work within a system that has been created by others and those who came before him

When I came to work here the building department sent 39% of building permit fees to the fire department to do plan reviews and inspections on sprinklers and alarm systems.
The bottom fell out in 09 a new city manager came in. She took the 39% away from the fire department and gave it back to us disbanded the fire prevention division of the fire department. Laid off the fire marshal, put one guy back on the truck and sent the other to me. (he started as a building inspector) Gave my department 1/2 a year salary from the general fund to cover fire inspections and we started to do the fire sprinkler and alarm plan reviews and issue permits. The first year out even as slow as it was the fees covered the salary of the one man I was given.
With the right ethical leadership at the top the system can be changed

Mountain Man, didn't you instigate the reform with the new City Manager? Maybe Fatboy and others should instigate reform in their jurisdictions.

I was reading this morning about sheriffs in Eastern Washington State refusing to enforce unconstitutional gun laws, you guys should assert yourselves and do the same, I know an inspector who had a "Green is the New Red" sign in his cubicle, he soon quit rather than enforce socialist codes like the green code.

Washington state recently introduced bills for some of the strictest gun laws in the country but they have some very important opponents: the sheriffs.

Long thought to be the last line of defense between authoritarianism and freedom, sheriffs are in a unique position. As elected officials, basically nobody has authority over them – not the judges, not the Feds – no one except the people who may or may not choose to re-elect them.¹

¹ https://www.theorganicprepper.com/t...-refuse-to-enforce-unconstitutional-gun-laws/

 

[jar546]

Consider this:

• Each year, over 2,300 home fire deaths occur in more than 365,000 reported structure fires. Therefore, the likelihood of surviving a home fire is approximately 99% without regard to the presence of smoke alarms or any other fire safety provisions. Does that mean 2,300 deaths are acceptable? Most people would say no.
• Each year, there are an estimated 12,000 deaths due to falls in homes and an estimated 11 million fall injuries in the home. The likelihood of surviving a fall is therefore 99.9%. Does that mean 12,000 deaths are acceptable? Most people would say no.
• Each year, there are an estimated 42,000 deaths due to motor vehicle crashes and an estimated 6 million reported motor vehicle crashes. The likelihood of surviving a motor vehicle crash is 99%. Does that mean 42,000 deaths are acceptable? Most people would say no.

Change the numbers to percentages and 3/10 of 1% does sound acceptable for fire deaths
or 1/10 of 1% for death due to falls in homes
or 7/10 of 1% for motor vehicle crashes

Numbers will drive more emotions than percentages when making reasonable decisions

rea·son·a·ble
Dictionary result for reasonable
/ˈrēz(ə)nəb(ə)l/
adjective

1. 1.
   (of a person) having sound judgment; fair and sensible.
   "no reasonable person could have objected"
   synonyms: sensible, rational, open to reason, full of common sense, logical, fair, fair-minded, just, equitable, decent; More
   • 
     
     
2. 2.
   as much as is appropriate or fair; moderate.
   "a police officer may use reasonable force to gain entry"
   synonyms: within reason, practicable, sensible;
   appropriate, suitable, fitting, proper

I would like some more details in the statistics. I would like a break down of the number of working structure fires for residential structures while occupied vs fatalities because I think the survival rate might me significantly lower. How about number of working residential structure fires at night while people are sleeping vs fatality rate?

 

[Coder]

I sincerely appreciate all of the candid comments here. It provides me with good insight as I forge the path of this jurisdiction that I am responsible for. Ultimately it is the decisions of the leaders of this community. I am just trying to educate them to make the right decisions. I have come to the conclusion that getting rid of or reducing certain code provisions isn't the answer.

 

[tmurray]

I sincerely appreciate all of the candid comments here. It provides me with good insight as I forge the path of this jurisdiction that I am responsible for. Ultimately it is the decisions of the leaders of this community. I am just trying to educate them to make the right decisions. I have come to the conclusion that getting rid of or reducing certain code provisions isn't the answer.

If they decide to eliminate some code provisions in an attempt to reduce cost of construction despite your recommendations, I think we would all be interested to hear if it does have an impact on the price of housing.

 

[tmurray]

I would like some more details in the statistics. I would like a break down of the number of working structure fires for residential structures while occupied vs fatalities because I think the survival rate might me significantly lower. How about number of working residential structure fires at night while people are sleeping vs fatality rate?

This is from a NFPA study. It clearly shows that the problem isn't that the building is on fire, because when most of the fires are happening is when the least number of deaths occur, it has to do with the activity of the occupants. At 5-7PM most of the fires are happening, but people mostly awake and alert, so there is the least number of deaths. 3-5AM we are seeing very low numbers of fires, but it is the highest death rates. If your objective is life safety, all you need to do is notify the occupants that there is a fire, which means increasing the requirements for smoke alarms. If your objective is to reduce damage to the building then hood suppression systems should be required.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Jar
The statistics came from the NFPA web site

https://www.nfpa.org/Public-Educati...ive/Take-action/Free-downloads/Myths-vs-facts

 

[SCBO1]

Good stuff tmurry!

it has to do with the activity of the occupants.

If your objective is life safety, all you need to do is notify the occupants that there is a fire, which means increasing the requirements for smoke alarms.

The exceptions in section P2904.1.1.
Garages, carports and exterior porches do not require the sprinklers.

Does the research take these areas into consideration? Are there less garage fires, not requiring sprinklers in a garage or is it because we don't heat the garage and that's why there's an exception?