Designer of plans that seeks a license

[mark handler]

I don't see the path as financially viable.

Others do.

it's like going to a doctor instead of a Nurse practitioner

Some doctors know nothing; Some architect know nothing.

Education and training; Many times they look at things from different perspectives.

 

[RickAstoria]

http://www.cab.ca.gov/pdf/publications/consumers_guide.pdfCalifornia Consumer's Guide to Hiring an Architect

I've read that as with the same basic guide that is issued out in every state.

Just that Architects aren't the only ones that can provide good design. If architectural licensing path is a viable path for everyone in the design profession of the built environment, I would encourage it more but it isn't but there are alternative options that are viable.

 

[mark handler]

90% of that is coming from home owners doing their own work and moonlighting interns

No Most are so called "building or residental designers" or contractors

 

[mark handler]

I've read that as with the same basic guide that is issued out in every state.Just that Architects aren't the only ones that can provide good design. If architectural licensing path is a viable path for everyone in the design profession of the built environment, I would encourage it more but it isn't but there are alternative options that are viable.

Rick there are very competent Building designers with the necessary abilities, knowledge, and skills to surpass those of many licened Architects.

But that is not the Law.

 

[RickAstoria]

Others do.it's like going to a doctor instead of a Nurse practitioner

Some doctors know nothing; Some architect know nothing.

Education and training

However, that analogy doesn't always hold in our profession. Considering nearly everything that is taught in school and generally in mentoring is the public knowledge. There is some stuff we all learn from actually doing but much of that is soft skills that we can't just learn by book but by practice.

An architect and a building designer with 35 years experience with comparable projects are going to be relatively comparable in knowledge and experience. A building designer in the residential field can be comparable in knowledge and skills (education and training) as an architect. That is because the process of licensure or examination is not the end of learning. In the larger scheme of a career, taking an exam is only a small portion of one's life.

 

[mark handler]

Rick

There are many projects that are NOT residental, residental is only a small portion of an Architects practice/life

 

[RickAstoria]

Rick there are very competent Building designers with the necessary abilities, knowledge, and skills to surpass those of many licened Architects. But that is not the Law.

But laws are not static. We get to define the law. Nice thing about being citizens. That's a right of ours. The law can be looked at in two perspectives, not just what we can't do but what we can do.

When something is not restricted, it is considered allowed. The law like the codes are shaped by us through our involvement with ICC and at our building code divisions as they are adopted and amended.

 

[RickAstoria]

RickThere are many projects that are NOT residental, residental is only a small portion of an Architects practice/life

Yes, but residential isn't always the only kinds of projects a building designer may design as we may practice not just in one state but other states where the exemptions maybe allow more kinds of projects. In Oregon, I may design light commercial buildings under a certain size but if I do a project in... oh... Oklahoma, I can do many projects that are non-exempt if the project was in Oregon but perfectly exempt. What I am allowed to design depends on the varying exemptions.

I focus on residential more in the case of California but in other states, what is allowed to be design isn't just residential.

 

[mark handler]

But laws are not static. We get to define the law. Nice thing about being citizens. That's a right of ours. The law can be looked at in two perspectives, not just what we can't do but what we can do.When something is not restricted, it is considered allowed. The law like the codes are shaped by us through our involvement with ICC and at our building code divisions as they are adopted and amended.

Good luck with that.

 

[RickAstoria]

Good luck with that.

Even then, it really doesn't matter because one thing that matters above everything and all the stuff about the laws is doing good work. For essentially the life of Cliff May, he never really let the licensing get in the way of making a successful career designing buildings.

 

[mark handler]

Even then, it really doesn't matter because one thing that matters above everything and all the stuff about the laws is doing good work. For essentially the life of Cliff May, he never really let the licensing get in the way of making a successful career designing buildings.

Not true

CALIFORNIA ARCHITECTS BOARD

Licensee Name: MAY, CLIFF

License Type: ARCHITECT

License Number: C16730

License Status: DECEASED

Expiration Date: August 31, 1991

Issue Date: January 01, 1986

Address: 13151 SUNSET BLVD

City: LOS ANGELES

State: CA

Zip: 90049

County: LOS ANGELES

Actions: No

For those that don't know

Cliff May was an architect practicing in California best known and remembered for developing the suburban Post-war "dream home" — the California Ranch House.

He with 300 other designers took advantage of the Elimination of the RBD PROGRAM

 

[RickAstoria]

Not trueCALIFORNIA ARCHITECTS BOARD

Licensee Name: MAY, CLIFF

License Type: ARCHITECT

License Number: C16730

License Status: DECEASED

Expiration Date: August 31, 1991

Issue Date: January 01, 1986

Address: 13151 SUNSET BLVD

City: LOS ANGELES

State: CA

Zip: 90049

County: LOS ANGELES

Actions: No

That was because they grandfathered him in. It was what... 1986 when they issued it. By then, he was already semi-retired. He had got registered as a registered building designer but for most of his career, license as an architect was not really something that mattered.

You might want to take a closer look at his background.

I said he never let the licensing get in the way of making a successful career in building design. Simply put, he was already successful LONG before that time. He was already becoming a successful building designer in the 1930s and 1940s and with the G.I. Bill and the 1950s and the housing boom, he was successful. In the course of his career, he became a registered building designer when that program came into existence but when CAB was sunsetting it, they intentionally grandfathered him.

Throughout his regular practicing career, he was never licensed as an architect.

There was a time where in California that building designers did have a registration. I don't recall exactly the regulation of the registered building designer program but when they were doing away with it in California, CAB made sure he was grandfathered in. It was probably more CAB and the people who were in charge and the respect he had garnered over the decades. He wasn't licensed until damn near his death. So it really had no real bearing on his career.

 

[RickAstoria]

As a matter of fact, registered building designer program came into play in 1964 when the first person was registered even though it was being discussed for the previous 10 years. Cliff May probably just paid the fees for registration as he was already established but it wasn't until they were shutting the program down and they grandfathered Cliff May as an architect in 1986 considering his well known and well established career before becoming a RBD and then the years sense. He had already a profound effect.

 

[mark handler]

Post #57 above

rick there are very competent building designers with the necessary abilities, knowledge, and skills to surpass those of many licened architects. But that is not the law.

YOU ARE BATTLING THE WINDMILLS

 

[RickAstoria]

Alright Mark,

Take a rest.

 

[Mark K]

To Counter some misstatements.

The building official has no authority to allow a building designer to design a project when state law says it needs to be designed by an architect or engineer. Even if a building official does not catch such transgressions this does not make it legal.

The building code cannot be used to give building designers the authority to design buildings regardless of what it says in the written code. Architects and engineers are regulated by state agencies which have preempted the field. Thus no local city or county can regulate the practice of architecture or engineering and no other state agency can do so unless the state legislature specifically says so.

My understanding is that in California, if an unlicensed individual practices architecture or engineering the client has no legal obligation to pay him. In addition I understand the client can force the unlicensed individual, who violated the law, to pay back any fees previously paid.

 

[RickAstoria]

To Counter some misstatements.The building official has no authority to allow a building designer to design a project when state law says it needs to be designed by an architect or engineer. Even if a building official does not catch such transgressions this does not make it legal.

The building code cannot be used to give building designers the authority to design buildings regardless of what it says in the written code. Architects and engineers are regulated by state agencies which have preempted the field. Thus no local city or county can regulate the practice of architecture or engineering and no other state agency can do so unless the state legislature specifically says so.

My understanding is that in California, if an unlicensed individual practices architecture or engineering the client has no legal obligation to pay him. In addition I understand the client can force the unlicensed individual, who violated the law, to pay back any fees previously paid.

Mark K,

That is not what I was saying. I was talking about exempt buildings. I think it might be misunderstood what I mean. Maybe, I'll write up an amended version of R106.1 to illustrate what I meant.

I think you misinterpreted what I meant. It might not have been written down to 1st grade english. My fault.

I'm not suggesting ANYTHING that would go against what the licensing law says. I am talking about regulations in the code in the domain of exempt buildings. Anything needing an architect or engineer's stamp would be unaffected.

I'll just have to write it up so you can read an amended version of 106.1/R106.1 that illustrates what I mean.

 

[conarb]

For those that don't knowCliff May was an architect practicing in California best known and remembered for developing the suburban Post-war "dream home" — the California Ranch House.

He with 300 other designers took advantage of the Elimination of the RBD PROGRAM

In looking at Cliff May's Issue Date, January 01, 1986, here is what I think was going on. I used a Building Designer in the 60s, she held a degree in architecture from Cal Berkeley but upon graduation she went right to work as a Building Designer, I never asked her but I assume that she didn't want put in the 5 years of slavery required of all aspiring architects in order to provide free labor to architects. She held RBD #22, at some point the state froze the program allowing existing RBDs to continue to practice but not allowing any more. Somebody, whether it was the state or the AIA, decided to end this and all active RBDs were grandfathered in as architects.

Recently I saw that her work was honored by a society of Woman Architects and they were categorized by the name of the client, looking through the list my name was absent; however, my long-time foreman's name was listed for several of his homes. What I surmised was happening was that all of my projects were back when the RBD program was active, and my foreman's projects were built after she was grandfathered in as an architect, I went to visit her not long before she passed and she told me her favorite house was my Bruener home, it was built in 1975 when she was still a RBD.. Notice that her archives start in 1981.

 

[Mark K]

Whether a building is exempt from the licensing laws is defined by the state licensing laws and not by the building code.

 

[RickAstoria]

But building codes references the exemptions and are made part of the building codes.

Here - Proposed Amended version of R106.1: (BELOW is my proposed amendment to the building codes language.

R106.1 Submittal documents.

Submittal documents consisting of construction documents, and other data shall be submitted in two or more sets with each application for a permit. The construction documents shall be prepared by a competent person. However, the building official shall require construction documents to be prepared by a registered design professional where required by the statutes of the jurisdiction in which the project is to be constructed. At the building official's discretion, the building official may require construction documents to be prepared by a certified design professional or a registered design professional where the project is not required to be prepared by a registered design professional by the statutes of the jurisdiction where the project is to be constructed. Where special conditions exist, the building official is authorized to require additional construction documents to be prepared by a registered design professional.

Exception: The building official is authorized to waive the submission of construction documents and other data not required to be prepared by a registered design professional if it is found that the nature of the work applied for is such that reviewing of construction documents is not necessary to obtain compliance with this code.

...

...

...

Chapter 2 amendment:

DESIGN PROFESSIONAL. See "certified design professional" and "Registered design professional."

Certified Design Professional: An unlicensed person certified by a qualifying design profession certification by a certifying organization. A qualifying design profession certification shall be a certification that certifies a person for building design, interior design, landscape design and related design and that the certification examination shall consist of a significant component dedicated to building codes, HSW (health, Safety and Welfare) subject matter and other related laws and regulations such as but not limited to: zoning codes, ADA, etc. Significant component shall neither be just a couple question nor shall it mean the certification is solely dedicated to the above topics. A list of qualifying certifications shall be prepared, made publicly available and regularly updated by ICC and/or the State building code division or local building department.

 

[RickAstoria]

In looking at Cliff May's Issue Date, January 01, 1986, here is what I think was going on. I used a Building Designer in the 60s, she held a degree in architecture from Cal Berkeley but upon graduation she went right to work as a Building Designer, I never asked her but I assume that she didn't want put in the 5 years of slavery required of all aspiring architects in order to provide free labor to architects. She held RBD #22, at some point the state froze the program allowing existing RBDs to continue to practice but not allowing any more. Somebody, whether it was the state or the AIA, decided to end this and all active RBDs were grandfathered in as architects. Recently I saw that her work was honored by a society of Woman Architects and they were categorized by the name of the client, looking through the list my name was absent; however, my long-time foreman's name was listed for several of his homes. What I surmised was happening was that all of my projects were back when the RBD program was active, and my foreman's projects were built after she was grandfathered in as an architect, I went to visit her not long before she passed and she told me her favorite house was my Bruener home, it was built in 1975 when she was still a RBD.. Notice that her archives start in 1981.

Yep, he was grandfathered in. Otherwise, he could have cared less because it never really mattered to Cliff May. Architectural licensure had no effect on the success of his career. He was a successful building designer before the RBD program came to existence and he had not bothered with being a licensed architect throughout is career until CAB and the then California governor shut down the RBD program and he was grandfathered in. He was already essentially retired by that time.

 

[mark handler]

But building codes references the exemptions and are made part of the building codes.Here - Proposed Amended version of R106.1: (BELOW is my proposed amendment to the building codes language.

R106.1 Submittal documents.

Submittal documents consisting of construction documents, and other data shall be submitted in two or more sets with each application for a permit. The construction documents shall be prepared by a competent person. However, the building official shall require construction documents to be prepared by a registered design professional where required by the statutes of the jurisdiction in which the project is to be constructed. At the building official's discretion, the building official may require construction documents to be prepared by a certified design professional or a registered design professional where the project is not required to be prepared by a registered design professional by the statutes of the jurisdiction where the project is to be constructed. Where special conditions exist, the building official is authorized to require additional construction documents to be prepared by a registered design professional.

Exception: The building official is authorized to waive the submission of construction documents and other data not required to be prepared by a registered design professional if it is found that the nature of the work applied for is such that reviewing of construction documents is not necessary to obtain compliance with this code.

...

...

...

Chapter 2 amendment:

DESIGN PROFESSIONAL. See "certified design professional" and "Registered design professional."

Certified Design Professional: An unlicensed person certified by a qualifying design profession certification by a certifying organization. A qualifying design profession certification shall be a certification that certifies a person for building design, interior design, landscape design and related design and that the certification examination shall consist of a significant component dedicated to building codes, HSW (health, Safety and Welfare) subject matter and other related laws and regulations such as but not limited to: zoning codes, ADA, etc. Significant component shall neither be just a couple question nor shall it mean the certification is solely dedicated to the above topics. A list of qualifying certifications shall be prepared, made publicly available and regularly updated by ICC and/or the State building code division or local building department.

Just a note Rick

CA did not adopt ICC's chapter one, They created their own Admin chapter.

In CA Design Professional issues are in the State Buisness and Professions code

 

[RickAstoria]

Just a note RickCA did not adopt chapter one, They created theur own Admin chapter.

We can always amend that chapter accordingly.

ICC is a good way to make coverage in many states. Yes, California does its own thing so I'll try to find that and then show you how the proposed concept can be incorporated in California's version.

 

[RickAstoria]

Well it seems to be in the book:

https://law.resource.org/pub/us/code/bsc.ca.gov/gov.ca.bsc.2013.02.5.pdf

Division II. (page 20).... however I do see the little note so I'll have to look it over precisely.

Convoluted! What braindamaged lawyer wrote that?