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Designer of plans that seeks a license

Discussion in 'Building Designers' started by tmtpermits, Apr 29, 2015.

  1. RickAstoria

    RickAstoria -------------------

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    As a matter of fact, registered building designer program came into play in 1964 when the first person was registered even though it was being discussed for the previous 10 years. Cliff May probably just paid the fees for registration as he was already established but it wasn't until they were shutting the program down and they grandfathered Cliff May as an architect in 1986 considering his well known and well established career before becoming a RBD and then the years sense. He had already a profound effect.
     
  2. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

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    Post #57 above

    YOU ARE BATTLING THE WINDMILLS

    [​IMG]
     
  3. RickAstoria

    RickAstoria -------------------

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    Alright Mark,

    Take a rest.
     
  4. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    To Counter some misstatements.

    The building official has no authority to allow a building designer to design a project when state law says it needs to be designed by an architect or engineer. Even if a building official does not catch such transgressions this does not make it legal.

    The building code cannot be used to give building designers the authority to design buildings regardless of what it says in the written code. Architects and engineers are regulated by state agencies which have preempted the field. Thus no local city or county can regulate the practice of architecture or engineering and no other state agency can do so unless the state legislature specifically says so.

    My understanding is that in California, if an unlicensed individual practices architecture or engineering the client has no legal obligation to pay him. In addition I understand the client can force the unlicensed individual, who violated the law, to pay back any fees previously paid.
     
  5. RickAstoria

    RickAstoria -------------------

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    Mark K,

    That is not what I was saying. I was talking about exempt buildings. I think it might be misunderstood what I mean. Maybe, I'll write up an amended version of R106.1 to illustrate what I meant.

    I think you misinterpreted what I meant. It might not have been written down to 1st grade english. My fault.

    I'm not suggesting ANYTHING that would go against what the licensing law says. I am talking about regulations in the code in the domain of exempt buildings. Anything needing an architect or engineer's stamp would be unaffected.

    I'll just have to write it up so you can read an amended version of 106.1/R106.1 that illustrates what I mean.
     
  6. conarb

    conarb Sawhorse

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    In looking at Cliff May's Issue Date, January 01, 1986, here is what I think was going on. I used a Building Designer in the 60s, she held a degree in architecture from Cal Berkeley but upon graduation she went right to work as a Building Designer, I never asked her but I assume that she didn't want put in the 5 years of slavery required of all aspiring architects in order to provide free labor to architects. She held RBD #22, at some point the state froze the program allowing existing RBDs to continue to practice but not allowing any more. Somebody, whether it was the state or the AIA, decided to end this and all active RBDs were grandfathered in as architects.

    Recently I saw that her work was honored by a society of Woman Architects and they were categorized by the name of the client, looking through the list my name was absent; however, my long-time foreman's name was listed for several of his homes. What I surmised was happening was that all of my projects were back when the RBD program was active, and my foreman's projects were built after she was grandfathered in as an architect, I went to visit her not long before she passed and she told me her favorite house was my Bruener home, it was built in 1975 when she was still a RBD.. Notice that her archives start in 1981.
     
  7. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    Whether a building is exempt from the licensing laws is defined by the state licensing laws and not by the building code.
     
  8. RickAstoria

    RickAstoria -------------------

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    But building codes references the exemptions and are made part of the building codes.

    Here - Proposed Amended version of R106.1: (BELOW is my proposed amendment to the building codes language.

    R106.1 Submittal documents.

    Submittal documents consisting of construction documents, and other data shall be submitted in two or more sets with each application for a permit. The construction documents shall be prepared by a competent person. However, the building official shall require construction documents to be prepared by a registered design professional where required by the statutes of the jurisdiction in which the project is to be constructed. At the building official's discretion, the building official may require construction documents to be prepared by a certified design professional or a registered design professional where the project is not required to be prepared by a registered design professional by the statutes of the jurisdiction where the project is to be constructed. Where special conditions exist, the building official is authorized to require additional construction documents to be prepared by a registered design professional.

    Exception: The building official is authorized to waive the submission of construction documents and other data not required to be prepared by a registered design professional if it is found that the nature of the work applied for is such that reviewing of construction documents is not necessary to obtain compliance with this code.

    ...

    ...

    ...

    Chapter 2 amendment:

    DESIGN PROFESSIONAL. See "certified design professional" and "Registered design professional."

    Certified Design Professional: An unlicensed person certified by a qualifying design profession certification by a certifying organization. A qualifying design profession certification shall be a certification that certifies a person for building design, interior design, landscape design and related design and that the certification examination shall consist of a significant component dedicated to building codes, HSW (health, Safety and Welfare) subject matter and other related laws and regulations such as but not limited to: zoning codes, ADA, etc. Significant component shall neither be just a couple question nor shall it mean the certification is solely dedicated to the above topics. A list of qualifying certifications shall be prepared, made publicly available and regularly updated by ICC and/or the State building code division or local building department.
     
  9. RickAstoria

    RickAstoria -------------------

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    Yep, he was grandfathered in. Otherwise, he could have cared less because it never really mattered to Cliff May. Architectural licensure had no effect on the success of his career. He was a successful building designer before the RBD program came to existence and he had not bothered with being a licensed architect throughout is career until CAB and the then California governor shut down the RBD program and he was grandfathered in. He was already essentially retired by that time.
     
  10. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

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    Just a note Rick

    CA did not adopt ICC's chapter one, They created their own Admin chapter.

    In CA Design Professional issues are in the State Buisness and Professions code
     
  11. RickAstoria

    RickAstoria -------------------

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    We can always amend that chapter accordingly.

    ICC is a good way to make coverage in many states. Yes, California does its own thing so I'll try to find that and then show you how the proposed concept can be incorporated in California's version.
     
  12. RickAstoria

    RickAstoria -------------------

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    #72 RickAstoria, Nov 1, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 1, 2015
  13. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

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    Refer to the CALIFORNIA BUILDING CODE-"MATRIX ADOPTION TABLE" which shows the user which state agencies have adopted and/or amended given sections of the model code.

    Then you need to know which state agencies have the authority of your project
     
  14. RickAstoria

    RickAstoria -------------------

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    I'm looking at it. Why don't they just put this all under one agency and simplify crap... oh wait... I forgot... it's California. Used to live there but been awhile.

    Okay..... SFRs?
     
  15. RickAstoria

    RickAstoria -------------------

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    I think I figured out it for the most part.... HCD1 (Housing & Community Development 1) which does adopt R106.1.

    SFM also but they adopt the entire chapter with amended sections in the matrix.

    I think I am wrapping my head around it. More annoyance than I would like but okay.
     
    #75 RickAstoria, Nov 1, 2015
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  16. mark handler

    mark handler Sawhorse

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    SFR are under the CRC not the CBC
     
  17. RickAstoria

    RickAstoria -------------------

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  18. Mark K

    Mark K Platinum Member

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    I suggest the reasons why the building code cannot regulate the practice of engineering and architecture applies to most if not all states. Laws adopted by the legislature, in every state, trump regulations, such as building codes, adopted by state agencies or local jurisdictions. Even in states with a strong home rule tradition there are some things that local jurisdictions are not allowed to regulate.

    Rick you are grasping at straws.

    This points out a general problem with the IBC in that over time a number of provisions have been added to the IBC that arguably regulate the practice of engineering and architecture. ICC does not care and when the building code is adopted such issues are not checked. Just because a provision finds its way into the "adopted" building code does not necessarily mean that it was legally adopted. If the adopting body does not have the authority to regulate something they cannot add the provisions to the building code they adopt.
     
  19. RickAstoria

    RickAstoria -------------------

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    Mark K,

    Regulating the exempt domain is not regulating practice of architecture or engineering.

    Local jurisdictions via municipal laws can regulate the exempt domain. Like adopting via municipal ordinances that when it comes to projects exempt from architect or engineer's law that they may authorize the building official to require construction documents by certified design professionals and registered design professionals at his/her discretion.

    That could possibly be done and merely adapting the example I gave.

    Simple as that.

    In many states, Municipal / County ordinance (codified law of a municipality or county) can add laws on top of state law but can not lessen state law.

    What I am talking about can be implemented by a means that stacks on top of state law but carefully written so that it doesn't add exemptions where it doesn't exist in state law.

    That goes back to home rule tradition.
     
    #79 RickAstoria, Nov 2, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 2, 2015
  20. rktect 1

    rktect 1 Gold Member

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