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door to nowhere

We've had this come up 2 or 3 times in just the last month or so. In one case, where the spaces on both sides of the door were comparably conditioned (temps about the same either side), the applicant eliminated the door completely and replaced it with a removable guard rail. Another one, where the open side was unconditioned, they kept the door, but recessed it into the upstairs space sufficiently to get the minimum sized landing on the outside of the door itself, then put a section of removable guard rail at the drop-off from that little space.
 
Well, like an owner said to me the other day:::

There is "what you would like items", and actual "code rquirements"

so if the pudhing becomes shoving need some code to back the requirement
 
I'm not sure an owner or applicant is in much of a position to suggest this is a "what you would like item." If they took it to the brass-tack level, they'd be hard-pressed to find any code reference that would let them have their door to nowhere, at least as far as the 2006 edition goes (that's all we're up to here in Indiana). There are no references I've been able to find to this condition at all. I had an applicant tell me it's "just like a loading dock," but in truth it isn't. Otherwise all the code says is a) there must be a floor or landing on both sides of doors, and b) a guard is required at the edge of drop-offs in excess of 30 inches. Granted, the door/floor/landing requirement is in specific reference to egress doors, but there really aren't any other kinds of human-passage doors referred to in the code, at least that I've been able to find.

Craig
 
cburgess said:
I'm not sure an owner or applicant is in much of a position to suggest this is a "what you would like item." If they took it to the brass-tack level, they'd be hard-pressed to find any code reference that would let them have their door to nowhere, at least as far as the 2006 edition goes (that's all we're up to here in Indiana). There are no references I've been able to find to this condition at all. I had an applicant tell me it's "just like a loading dock," but in truth it isn't. Otherwise all the code says is a) there must be a floor or landing on both sides of doors, and b) a guard is required at the edge of drop-offs in excess of 30 inches. Granted, the door/floor/landing requirement is in specific reference to egress doors, but there really aren't any other kinds of human-passage doors referred to in the code, at least that I've been able to find.Craig[/quote

Well if it is not in the code than you can do it
Click to expand...
 
MEANS OF EGRESS.

A continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion of a building or structure to a public way. A means of egress consists of three separate and distinct parts: the exit access, the exit and the exit discharge.

EXIT ACCESS DOORWAY.

A door or access point along the path of egress travel from an occupied room, area or space where the path of egress enters an intervening room, corridor, unenclosed exit access stair or unenclosed exit access ramp.

1008.1 Doors.

Means of egress doors shall meet the requirements of this section. Doors serving a means of egress system shall meet the requirements of this section and Section 1020.2. Doors provided for egress purposes in numbers greater than required by this code shall meet the requirements of this section.

1008.1.5 Floor elevation.

There shall be a floor or landing on each side of a door. Such floor or landing shall be at the same elevation on each side of the door. Landings shall be level except for exterior landings, which are permitted to have a slope not to exceed 0.25 unit vertical in 12 units horizontal

(2-percent slope).

I think that should be enough code.
 
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cda said:
It is not an exit access
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Why is that? Can't the "2nd floor mechanical "mezzanine" be occupied? What is it if not part of the exit access?
 
We'll I guess if you go to the top of a high rise stair and there is a door to the roof once you open that door you are in a means of egress, just got to watch that first step off the roof?

Or if the Op picture guess they have not put in the required stairs yet? Or does the ladder count

Come on my code stretcher is in the shop for repair
 
Doesn't the IMC require access and and opening big enough to change out equipment?
 
cda said:
Doesn't the IMC require access and and opening big enough to change out equipment?
Click to expand...
Yes but the mech code also requires guards be in place within so many feet of a pc of mech equipment when there is a drop and service being done so door open drop not enough room for door in swing so I am guessing hazard distance met, if they are he'll bent on 3 minutes to removed fixed in place guard to do work once in a while if at all, then who is kidding who about the safety.
 
cda said:
Come on my code stretcher is in the shop for repair
Click to expand...
Feel free to borrow mine anytime. It's the new deluxe model that senses when the code is about to snap and shuts down. There is a manual override but that takes training to operate.

We'll I guess if you go to the top of a high rise stair and there is a door to the roof once you open that door you are in a means of egress, just got to watch that first step off the roof?
Click to expand...
Hardly a reasonable comparison. Add a 10' tall parapet with a door to nowhere and you're getting closer.

I just find it odd that a door can be placed willy-nilly anywhere and not have the code apply. Change the door to a window.... 12' sq. ft., 12" above the floor. Would there be any code applicable to that?

Part of the quandary here is the description as "a 2nd floor mechanical "mezzanine". The word mezzanine is in quotation marks, thus giving the impression that it may be something other than the second floor of a mezzanine. This would allow a comparison to roof top equipment that is accessed by a roof hatch. Obviously a roof hatch falls outside chapter 10 requirements as they relate to means of egress. The same can be said for equipment that is installed in an attic. In those instances there is apparently not a room or space that is occupied. Perhaps it hinges on the definition of occupied. Servicing equipment may not fit within the definition.

That's not what's going on here. There is a full-on second floor with a door.
 
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ICE said:
Feel free to borrow mine anytime. It's the new deluxe model that senses when the code is about to snap and shuts down. There is a manual override but that takes training to operate.
Click to expand...
Love you youngsters, who know how to use those new thing a ma jigs
 
Wow, see what I get for not checking the forum over the weekend! :shock: Here's some additional background to help clear up (or add to) the confusion:

As I have posted about before, many of my projects are in rural areas on native land. In some cases there is no AHJ whatsoever and we are completely left to fend for ourselves. In this case, we DO have an AHJ, but they are (to put it mildly) hard to get a hold of. They almost never actually take phone calls, and written questions can sometimes take weeks for a response. Additionally, we have had questions in the past where they have actually refused to comment because they didn't feel "comfortable" reviewing an issue

:pitty

The second half of this particular quagmire is the relationship between the Owner, their fingerquotes "inspector" (not actually an inspector at all, but he looooves making suggestions :inspctr:roll:) and us, the designers. For this issue, the "inspector" suggested that our access panel be changed to a swinging door so that there would be more room to move equipment. The Owner approved this change over our objections. If it had remained an access panel, none of this would even have come up, because it is NOT a door, and would require a screwdriver to open, much like some of the suggestions made here.

So now that the door frame is already installed (again, over our objections) we are put in the precarious position of performing our own due diligence in making sure this is as code compliant and as safe as possible. If that is limited to "well, we warned you" then so be it.

The third part of this swampy mess is the configuration of the mezzanine and the placement of the door. The word mezzanine is in quotes because technically it has to be regulated as a second floor since it is not a part of the story below. It is separated by a 1-HR barrier all around (oh yes, that lousy door has to be fire rated too...). You can see from the photo in the OP that there is ductwork very close to the door on the mezzanine side which pretty much invalidates its use for moving large parts anyway. This also makes it quite difficult to have any secondary pipe barrier or similar feature that is not applied directly to the door frame.

The open side where the picture was taken from is the lobby of the building, so any kind of landing, railing, diving board, stairs, whatever, on that side of the door is totally out. Again, the normal access into the space is by floor hatch only. Did I mention we didn't want this condition in the first place?

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions and often-as-not hilarious comments. Please keep them coming!

-LP
 
Is there really an 8" sill to increase the chances of personnel falling out the door?
 
IPIBURN,

Since as noted not really a reg issue, but rather a CYA issue, again, just sketch the opening, put a 2 strand guard in place with screws on paper and make your directive to have built and install.

If they don't, you have accomplished what you wanted. Which was simply objected to the change and then informed them what needed to be done.

The rest is left to those that do otherwise.
 
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