FM William Burns
REGISTERED
Re: down spouts and walkways
Thanks UB
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mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
Re: down spouts and walkways
brudgers
brudgers
The OP
The OP is trying to address this at the plan review stage. He is not holding up a CO or denying a permit or anything like that. He has recognized a potential problem and is looking for a solution. So can we help him get a good year round safe design either through code requirements or as UB's photos showed.
globe trekker
REGISTERED
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2009
- Messages
- 1,739
Re: down spouts and walkways
Looks like this is going into extra innings...
Looks like this is going into extra innings...
Re: down spouts and walkways
Brudgers:
Brudgers:
Raise your hand if you think brudgers would not go on and on about authority if he had any. That's what I thought.
Brudgers:
Brudgers:
No he is not a king. However, if he is acting within the boundaries of his duties, and can defend his interpretation, he will prevail whether you like it or not. Sorry brudgers, that's just the way it is, as case law shows time after time after time.
Brudgers:
Because you don't have any.
Raise your hand if you think brudgers would not go on and on about authority if he had any. That's what I thought.
Brudgers:
I just threw up in my mouth. And we have the responsibility of making sure you meet the code too. You know, just to make double sure...
Re: down spouts and walkways
Straight from the 2006 IBC:
Definitions:
MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion of a building or structure to a public way. A means of egress consists of three separate and distinct parts: the exit access, the exit and the exit discharge.
EXIT DISCHARGE. That portion of a means of egress system between the termination of an exit and a public way.
PUBLIC WAY. A street, alley or other parcel of land open to the outside air leading to a street, that has been deeded, dedicated or otherwise permanently appropriated to the public for public use and which has a clear width and height of not less than 10 feet (3048 mm).
1003.4 Floor surface.
Walking surfaces of the means of egress shall have a slip-resistant surface and be securely attached.
ANSI A117.1:
104.4 Floor or Floor Surface.
The terms floor or floor surface refer to the finish floor surface or ground surface, as applicable.
302.1 General.
Floor surfaces shall be stable, firm, and slip resistant, and shall comply with Section 302. Changes in level in floor surfaces shall comply with Section 303.
There is no code requirement for a slip-resistant parking lot but there is a code requirement for a slip-resistant means of egress to a public way (parking lot), plus the entire accessible route.
Until you have arrived at a public way, and unless the sidewalk is more than 10' wide between the exit and the public way, you need to comply with 1003.4 and 302.1. What part of ice-covered sidewalk is a "slip-resistant surface"?
Maybe this does not happen in GA or FLA but it happens here big time. The right thing to do would be to provide downspouts directly connected to a storm water system or the sidewalk grates or some other system or put the downspout discharge somewhere away from the sidewalk.
The plan reviewer has identified a potentially hazardous condition which through experience he knows to be created by this design. I'm with the plan reviewer.
There is a lot more to your job as pencil pusher than "to meet the code." But since you design to the lowest common denominator, let's review some code text, shall we? (This may be the first time you have ever seen these...)Brudgers said:
Straight from the 2006 IBC:
Definitions:
MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion of a building or structure to a public way. A means of egress consists of three separate and distinct parts: the exit access, the exit and the exit discharge.
EXIT DISCHARGE. That portion of a means of egress system between the termination of an exit and a public way.
PUBLIC WAY. A street, alley or other parcel of land open to the outside air leading to a street, that has been deeded, dedicated or otherwise permanently appropriated to the public for public use and which has a clear width and height of not less than 10 feet (3048 mm).
1003.4 Floor surface.
Walking surfaces of the means of egress shall have a slip-resistant surface and be securely attached.
ANSI A117.1:
104.4 Floor or Floor Surface.
The terms floor or floor surface refer to the finish floor surface or ground surface, as applicable.
302.1 General.
Floor surfaces shall be stable, firm, and slip resistant, and shall comply with Section 302. Changes in level in floor surfaces shall comply with Section 303.
There is no code requirement for a slip-resistant parking lot but there is a code requirement for a slip-resistant means of egress to a public way (parking lot), plus the entire accessible route.
Until you have arrived at a public way, and unless the sidewalk is more than 10' wide between the exit and the public way, you need to comply with 1003.4 and 302.1. What part of ice-covered sidewalk is a "slip-resistant surface"?
Maybe this does not happen in GA or FLA but it happens here big time. The right thing to do would be to provide downspouts directly connected to a storm water system or the sidewalk grates or some other system or put the downspout discharge somewhere away from the sidewalk.
The plan reviewer has identified a potentially hazardous condition which through experience he knows to be created by this design. I'm with the plan reviewer.
mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
Re: down spouts and walkways
Leave it to the fire boys to have something.
I know this is a maintenance section so ask the owners (not the DP) for a maintenance plan to keep ice from forming at the downspout discharge areas. I bet when they factor in the on going cost the owners will ask the DP why he designed the downspouts to discharge across the sidewalks
brudgers can respond but it meets code, it is your maintenance problem not my design error.
IFC 1028.3 Obstructions.
A means of egress shall be free from obstructions that would prevent its use, including the accumulation of snow and ice.
Leave it to the fire boys to have something.
I know this is a maintenance section so ask the owners (not the DP) for a maintenance plan to keep ice from forming at the downspout discharge areas. I bet when they factor in the on going cost the owners will ask the DP why he designed the downspouts to discharge across the sidewalks
brudgers can respond but it meets code, it is your maintenance problem not my design error.
IFC 1028.3 Obstructions.
A means of egress shall be free from obstructions that would prevent its use, including the accumulation of snow and ice.
Dr. J
Silver Member
Re: down spouts and walkways
Sorry, this looked like too much fun, I had to join in.
Wouldn't this be a similar situation to a snow-country building where a below-grade egress lead to a stair in an area-way on the north side? There is no doubt that this "pit" would always be full of snow and ice. Is this a code violation or a maintenance headache? The IFC section Mtl referenced could be read as requiring preventing snow and ice from ever forming, not just a plan to remove. In otherwords, my egress pit example would required a snow melt system or a roof (I speak from experience on this one).
BTW - for the record, I tend to be a "the words of the code" type of guy, and just hate it when an AHJ says "because I said so". But in this case, I would say "approved location" is clearly defined, and could be a red polka dot inflatable swimming pool if that is what is "Acceptable to the code official or other authority having jurisdiction".
This issue is not limited to places with real weather, condensate dripping from an AC unit can leave a nasty slime trail.
Sorry, this looked like too much fun, I had to join in.
Wouldn't this be a similar situation to a snow-country building where a below-grade egress lead to a stair in an area-way on the north side? There is no doubt that this "pit" would always be full of snow and ice. Is this a code violation or a maintenance headache? The IFC section Mtl referenced could be read as requiring preventing snow and ice from ever forming, not just a plan to remove. In otherwords, my egress pit example would required a snow melt system or a roof (I speak from experience on this one).
BTW - for the record, I tend to be a "the words of the code" type of guy, and just hate it when an AHJ says "because I said so". But in this case, I would say "approved location" is clearly defined, and could be a red polka dot inflatable swimming pool if that is what is "Acceptable to the code official or other authority having jurisdiction".
This issue is not limited to places with real weather, condensate dripping from an AC unit can leave a nasty slime trail.
Paul Sweet
SAWHORSE
Re: down spouts and walkways
The church I attend has a similar situation to the OP. The main entrance has a sidewalk going directly to a parking area. A side entrance has a sidewalk going directly to another parking area. A third sidewalk connects these 2 sidewalks, and runs along the side of the building where some downspouts discharge over it. It's a stupid design, and I would have found a way to keep the water off the sidewalk if I had designed it, but I don't see where it's a code violation. This third sidewalk isn't required for egress, so they could block the walk if it gets icy, or put in a lot of extra effort to keep it salted and sanded.
If I were reviewing this I would advise the DP that it is a bad design, and creates a potential liability for him (or her) as well as the Owner. On the other hand, I would not allow the downspouts to discharge over a walk that is part of the means of egress.
The church I attend has a similar situation to the OP. The main entrance has a sidewalk going directly to a parking area. A side entrance has a sidewalk going directly to another parking area. A third sidewalk connects these 2 sidewalks, and runs along the side of the building where some downspouts discharge over it. It's a stupid design, and I would have found a way to keep the water off the sidewalk if I had designed it, but I don't see where it's a code violation. This third sidewalk isn't required for egress, so they could block the walk if it gets icy, or put in a lot of extra effort to keep it salted and sanded.
If I were reviewing this I would advise the DP that it is a bad design, and creates a potential liability for him (or her) as well as the Owner. On the other hand, I would not allow the downspouts to discharge over a walk that is part of the means of egress.
Re: down spouts and walkways
Straight from the 2006 IBC:
Definitions:
MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion of a building or structure to a public way. A means of egress consists of three separate and distinct parts: the exit access, the exit and the exit discharge.
EXIT DISCHARGE. That portion of a means of egress system between the termination of an exit and a public way.
PUBLIC WAY. A street, alley or other parcel of land open to the outside air leading to a street, that has been deeded, dedicated or otherwise permanently appropriated to the public for public use and which has a clear width and height of not less than 10 feet (3048 mm).
1003.4 Floor surface.
Walking surfaces of the means of egress shall have a slip-resistant surface and be securely attached.
ANSI A117.1:
104.4 Floor or Floor Surface.
The terms floor or floor surface refer to the finish floor surface or ground surface, as applicable.
302.1 General.
Floor surfaces shall be stable, firm, and slip resistant, and shall comply with Section 302. Changes in level in floor surfaces shall comply with Section 303.
There is no code requirement for a slip-resistant parking lot but there is a code requirement for a slip-resistant means of egress to a public way (parking lot), plus the entire accessible route.
Until you have arrived at a public way, and unless the sidewalk is more than 10' wide between the exit and the public way, you need to comply with 1003.4 and 302.1. What part of ice-covered sidewalk is a "slip-resistant surface"?
Maybe this does not happen in GA or FLA but it happens here big time. The right thing to do would be to provide downspouts directly connected to a storm water system or the sidewalk grates or some other system or put the downspout discharge somewhere away from the sidewalk.
The plan reviewer has identified a potentially hazardous condition which through experience he knows to be created by this design. I'm with the plan reviewer.
Eliminating roof discharge onto the walk does not eliminate ice from the walk.
As I stated before, in many climates keeping ice off the walk is a maintenance issue and will be one regardless of where the downspouts are located.
Complying with the means of egress requirement is an ongoing issue.
And the code official is obligated to determine slip resistance of a surface at the time of inspection.
If at the time of inspection the surface meets the slip resistance requirement, then it meets the code.
Removing ice from the walking surface is no less a maintenance issue than removing boxes to maintain egress width.
The concrete walkway is not a required element. It is provided for convenience and if it is not maintained or non-existent persons can and will discharge through the parking lot.
The exit discharge can ..and quite frequently does...pass through the parking lot. in order to provide access to a public way.
As you know, it is the Architect not the Building Official who designs and designates the exit discharge.
If you want downspouts to do certain things, put it in your ordinance rather than attempting to practice architecture by designating the exit discharge.
Not having an ordinance is like downspouts on the sidewalk, often bad practice.
And just to disabuse you of false notions, meeting code is the primary responsibility of my architectural licenses.
Within Alabama I often provide services in areas with no building department, whatsoever...without sovereign immunity and corporate liability limitations.
Out of curiosity do you require sidewalk grates to be made of plastic?
Otherwise, the walkway will not meet egress when meth-heads steal the grates for recycling.
There is a lot more to your job as pencil pusher than "to meet the code." But since you design to the lowest common denominator, let's review some code text, shall we? (This may be the first time you have ever seen these...)TJacobs said:
Straight from the 2006 IBC:
Definitions:
MEANS OF EGRESS. A continuous and unobstructed path of vertical and horizontal egress travel from any occupied portion of a building or structure to a public way. A means of egress consists of three separate and distinct parts: the exit access, the exit and the exit discharge.
EXIT DISCHARGE. That portion of a means of egress system between the termination of an exit and a public way.
PUBLIC WAY. A street, alley or other parcel of land open to the outside air leading to a street, that has been deeded, dedicated or otherwise permanently appropriated to the public for public use and which has a clear width and height of not less than 10 feet (3048 mm).
1003.4 Floor surface.
Walking surfaces of the means of egress shall have a slip-resistant surface and be securely attached.
ANSI A117.1:
104.4 Floor or Floor Surface.
The terms floor or floor surface refer to the finish floor surface or ground surface, as applicable.
302.1 General.
Floor surfaces shall be stable, firm, and slip resistant, and shall comply with Section 302. Changes in level in floor surfaces shall comply with Section 303.
There is no code requirement for a slip-resistant parking lot but there is a code requirement for a slip-resistant means of egress to a public way (parking lot), plus the entire accessible route.
Until you have arrived at a public way, and unless the sidewalk is more than 10' wide between the exit and the public way, you need to comply with 1003.4 and 302.1. What part of ice-covered sidewalk is a "slip-resistant surface"?
Maybe this does not happen in GA or FLA but it happens here big time. The right thing to do would be to provide downspouts directly connected to a storm water system or the sidewalk grates or some other system or put the downspout discharge somewhere away from the sidewalk.
The plan reviewer has identified a potentially hazardous condition which through experience he knows to be created by this design. I'm with the plan reviewer.
Eliminating roof discharge onto the walk does not eliminate ice from the walk.
As I stated before, in many climates keeping ice off the walk is a maintenance issue and will be one regardless of where the downspouts are located.
Complying with the means of egress requirement is an ongoing issue.
And the code official is obligated to determine slip resistance of a surface at the time of inspection.
If at the time of inspection the surface meets the slip resistance requirement, then it meets the code.
Removing ice from the walking surface is no less a maintenance issue than removing boxes to maintain egress width.
The concrete walkway is not a required element. It is provided for convenience and if it is not maintained or non-existent persons can and will discharge through the parking lot.
The exit discharge can ..and quite frequently does...pass through the parking lot. in order to provide access to a public way.
As you know, it is the Architect not the Building Official who designs and designates the exit discharge.
If you want downspouts to do certain things, put it in your ordinance rather than attempting to practice architecture by designating the exit discharge.
Not having an ordinance is like downspouts on the sidewalk, often bad practice.
And just to disabuse you of false notions, meeting code is the primary responsibility of my architectural licenses.
Within Alabama I often provide services in areas with no building department, whatsoever...without sovereign immunity and corporate liability limitations.
Out of curiosity do you require sidewalk grates to be made of plastic?
Otherwise, the walkway will not meet egress when meth-heads steal the grates for recycling.
Coug Dad
Platinum Member
Re: down spouts and walkways
Has anyone pointed out that the grates in UB's photos do not meet code because the long dimension of the holes is required to be perpindicular to the primary path of travel?
Has anyone pointed out that the grates in UB's photos do not meet code because the long dimension of the holes is required to be perpindicular to the primary path of travel?
Re: down spouts and walkways
As I stated before, in many climates keeping ice off the walk is a maintenance issue and will be one regardless of where the downspouts are located.
Complying with the means of egress requirement is an ongoing issue.
And the code official is obligated to determine slip resistance of a surface at the time of inspection.
If at the time of inspection the surface meets the slip resistance requirement, then it meets the code.
Removing ice from the walking surface is no less a maintenance issue than removing boxes to maintain egress width.
The concrete walkway is not a required element. It is provided for convenience and if it is not maintained or non-existent persons can and will discharge through the parking lot.
The exit discharge can ..and quite frequently does...pass through the parking lot. in order to provide access to a public way.
As you know, it is the Architect not the Building Official who designs and designates the exit discharge.
If you want downspouts to do certain things, put it in your ordinance rather than attempting to practice architecture by designating the exit discharge.
Not having an ordinance is like downspouts on the sidewalk, often bad practice.
And just to disabuse you of false notions, meeting code is the primary responsibility of my architectural licenses.
Within Alabama I often provide services in areas with no building department, whatsoever...without sovereign immunity and corporate liability limitations.
Out of curiosity do you require sidewalk grates to be made of plastic?
Otherwise, the walkway will not meet egress when meth-heads steal the grates for recycling.
I don't operate under the assumption that I have any immunity...I operate under the assumption that as an adult and an educated code professional tasked with the responsibilty of public safety in the built environment I'm going to be on the witness stand defending my decisions someday.
The location of downspout discharge does not eliminate ice, it prevents concentrated ice. We can't control the weather but we can control downspout discharge.
We don't REQUIRE the grates, that is the DP choice. Maybe you as the DP won't choose that method because of your knowledge of their theft. I won't knowingly approve downspout discharge across a means of egress because I know better. The theft of manhole covers for scrap doesn't negate the requirement for manhole covers
Even when code text and other experience is presented to you you stick to your position. Any further response by me could be interpreted by the moderator as personal.
Eliminating roof discharge onto the walk does not eliminate ice from the walk.brudgers said:
As I stated before, in many climates keeping ice off the walk is a maintenance issue and will be one regardless of where the downspouts are located.
Complying with the means of egress requirement is an ongoing issue.
And the code official is obligated to determine slip resistance of a surface at the time of inspection.
If at the time of inspection the surface meets the slip resistance requirement, then it meets the code.
Removing ice from the walking surface is no less a maintenance issue than removing boxes to maintain egress width.
The concrete walkway is not a required element. It is provided for convenience and if it is not maintained or non-existent persons can and will discharge through the parking lot.
The exit discharge can ..and quite frequently does...pass through the parking lot. in order to provide access to a public way.
As you know, it is the Architect not the Building Official who designs and designates the exit discharge.
If you want downspouts to do certain things, put it in your ordinance rather than attempting to practice architecture by designating the exit discharge.
Not having an ordinance is like downspouts on the sidewalk, often bad practice.
And just to disabuse you of false notions, meeting code is the primary responsibility of my architectural licenses.
Within Alabama I often provide services in areas with no building department, whatsoever...without sovereign immunity and corporate liability limitations.
Out of curiosity do you require sidewalk grates to be made of plastic?
Otherwise, the walkway will not meet egress when meth-heads steal the grates for recycling.
I don't operate under the assumption that I have any immunity...I operate under the assumption that as an adult and an educated code professional tasked with the responsibilty of public safety in the built environment I'm going to be on the witness stand defending my decisions someday.
The location of downspout discharge does not eliminate ice, it prevents concentrated ice. We can't control the weather but we can control downspout discharge.
We don't REQUIRE the grates, that is the DP choice. Maybe you as the DP won't choose that method because of your knowledge of their theft. I won't knowingly approve downspout discharge across a means of egress because I know better. The theft of manhole covers for scrap doesn't negate the requirement for manhole covers
Even when code text and other experience is presented to you you stick to your position. Any further response by me could be interpreted by the moderator as personal.
Re: down spouts and walkways
Among them is that out in the real world, I don't give a crap when my competitors' plans are rejected.
There's a difference in context between an actual code review and an online discussion of issues surrounding the code.TJacobs said:
Among them is that out in the real world, I don't give a crap when my competitors' plans are rejected.
JBI
REGISTERED
Re: down spouts and walkways
Anyone for a rousing debate on attic stairs? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Anyone for a rousing debate on attic stairs? :lol: :lol: :lol:
Re: down spouts and walkways
View attachment 80
/monthly_2010_06/Graphic1.jpg.f2e4022b344b0f18e44b369cb6112522.jpg
View attachment 80Coug Dad said:Has anyone pointed out that the grates in UB's photos do not meet code because the long dimension of the holes is required to be perpindicular to the primary path of travel?
View attachment 80
/monthly_2010_06/Graphic1.jpg.f2e4022b344b0f18e44b369cb6112522.jpg