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I don't like I-joists either.

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Re: I don't like I-joists either.

M & M said:
Conarb,An inspector that does not know where the squash blocks go should find a different job.
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M & M:

They are not in the prescriptive code so far as I know, as such if they are used, or where they are used, is none of the inspectors' business. I seems to me that if they are used the AHJ should require engineered designs. Industrial hygienists are finding extremely high levels of formaldehyde and other chemicals in new homes, and engineered wood products are the prime suspects, if you recall several years ago a family was sick from the offgassing of I Joists and it was determined that it was from the open cold air returns running through them, the solution was to duct the cold air returns in homes with I Joists, but the carcinogenic fumes are still there. Elmhurst Illinois has the best solution, in homes with I Joists they require fire sprinklers, to date nobody has installed I joists because nobody wants the expense or liability of fire sprinklers.
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

Min&Max says -

"An inspector that does not know where the squash blocks go should find a different job.

Uncle Bob,

Wood I-joists are a common framing material that have been in the industry for quite a while now. Any inspector who is still so unfamiliar with this product that he isn't comfortable looking at them should; 1). Educate himself on their use, or 2). Find a different career. Anyone who needs a detailed, stamped plan for the proper installation of wood I-joists is either an idiot or incompetent and should be relieved of their duties immediately. I would not tolerate such ignorance on the part of one of my staff."

Well, I guess I would never be able to work for you. I learned that my job was to inspect to the approved plans. If the plans included a detailed, stamped plan on the installation of the I-joists, that is what I'm inspecting to. If I'm a plans examiner and the builder/owner has taken the time and expense to hire a certified engineer to do the engineering on the plans, I'll double check the plans, but the onnus is on the engineer. If I'm the plans examiner and the plans show/call out for a specific product, I'll be looking up that product (I-joist) to make sure the span and load shown on the plans are per manufactor specs.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you Min&Max, I'm just saying that that is not the way I was taught to inspect (plans or the building) and I would enforce what I outlined above.
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

I started working construction in 1972 and am fairly familiar with most residential framing techniques--some good some bad. Over the last 37 years many products have come and gone. The first generation wood I-joists that came out in the late '70's early '80's were not the product they were touted to be. But what we have today is much improved and--when properly installed-- a superior product when compared to dimensional lumber(my opinion). These products have been around a long time and we(inspectors) should be taking some initiatve and educating ourselves on their proper installation. If we are going to insist on engineered drawings and plans on every floor system that crosses our desk and outside inspectors to confirm their proper installation, we will become the same as the old products that have fallen by the wayside--obsolete. If a large segment of your market is utilizing a product on a regular basis it is time to get up to speed or get out of the way. Despite what many would lead you to believe with scare tactics, this isn't rocket science. And yes Uncle Bob I am a building official.
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

M & M:

What about collapsing in fire? Do you check to see that the jobs with lightweight trusses or I joists are properly labeled (here is New Jersey) so the fire service can save lives and let them burn?" San Francisco is requiring labelling like house numbers clearly visible from the street.
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

Min&Max,

You must be blessed with extremely knowledgeable inspectors. Since they do not require a TJI layout; they must also be able to inspect without framing plans and roof-ceiling truss design drawings.

Most Building Officials are lucky to find people who have some experience and/or background and the ability to learn and hopefully have a building certification. I know numerous certified building inspectors and Building Officials who cannot read or understand TJI layouts and/or truss design drawings; and none who can correctly inspect them without the layouts and/or drawings; much less are able to walk up to a framing inspection and conduct the inspections without them.

If every Building Official insisted on your requirements for a new hire as a building inspector; most Municipalities wouldn't have a building inspector.

From the replies I am reading you have evidently found yourself on a website with a bunch of "idiots" who should be fired immediately; according to you.

ps. I haven't conducted a residential framing inspection in a year and and a half; and, am retired. I have known a lot of inspectors and none who are as knowledgeable as your inspectors. Since I am retired; I have some time on my hands; I would consider it an honor and a privilege to follow one of your building inspectors on a residential framing inspection that included TJI floor framing and metal plate connected wood trusses.

If you are within 500 miles of Oklahoma City; and, would allow me the privilege; I will be more than happy to take that drive. Since I got my first job as an inspector I have been driven to learn as much as I can. I would be greatful for the opportunity to observe your inspectors.

Please send me a private message and I will make the time.

Best wishes,

Uncle Bob
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

Well this has turned out to be quite the can of worms I've opened up with this thread. For those that read the plans and those that don't, I give you my method. I walk a roughs inspection before I look at the plans. I write the obvious corrections for all the trades all the while looking for the weak spots in the construction. Then I look at the plans. By then I know how the building is put together. Then I make sure that the work matches the plans.

Plans are seldom perfect and on occasion grossly imperfect yet many think that if it is on the plans it is good enough.

A good inspector should be able to inspect without plans. I don't recommend it, nor do I do it but I should be able to recognize what's right and what's not on my own. If all an inspector can do is get work to match the plans, that inspector puts too much faith in the plan checker. For many years I was the plan checker as well as the inspector so I know we all make mistakes. The bottom line is read the plans and apply what you know and hopefully it will be good enough.

Consider that 30% of construction work is done without permit or inspection. Of the 70% that does get a permit, half is inspected by the 1 to 5 scale inspector and half by the 6 to 10 scale inspector. So there you have it. 35% of all construction gets inspected by a competent inspector. What is the result? Buildings aren't falling down. People aren't getting electrocuted or gassed in their sleep. It seems to work ok for the entire 100%. Anybody that is unwilling to accept that few inspectors are really great at inspecting has their head in the sand.

I'm guessing that the can of worms just got bigger but it is time for this thread to die a natural death.
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

Min&Max,

Since you inspect TJI floor framing in new homes without the use of a TJI Layout; how do you determine if a filler block, in a double TJI installation; is required by the design engineer without looking at the layout?

Uncle Bob
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

UB: You really can't inspect them without the plan. That is why one of the approved set must remain on site. Now if they are cookie cut homes and the plan is the same after a few you don't need the plan if you have half a brain. I most often fine point loads not carried through or the normal response is the plumbers must have knock it out! :roll:
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

I am having trouble deciding to respond to various comments or let it die like Tiger suggested.

This may get somewhat off track but is intertwined with original post and responses. Make no mistake--I will be as aggresive as necessary. I enjoy playing in the mud and I always play to win. What be the consensus of all?
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

Min&Max,

Please take it easy on this old inspector; my knowledge is limited and my feelings are easily hurt. :)

Were you planning on answering my last question?

Uncle Bob
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

May be kind of like watching a train wreck--fun to watch but rarely anything good comes of it. But I do like watching train wrecks from the safety of my sofa.
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

Dang, looks like everybody chose death of thread. Just when it looked like the trains were picking up some downhill speed.
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

Typically LVL's are installed instead of double I-joists. I-joists create to much of a barrier for the plumbing and mechanical folks.
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

And drilling through LVLs is easier than drilling through two pieces of OSB? :?
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

And drilling through LVLs is easier than drilling through two pieces of OSB? :?
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

You really should not drill through a LVL. If you do, you need to have it approved by the manufacturer/design professional. The top and bottom chords on wood I-joists are typicall 2 1/4"

to 2 1/2" wide. It is a sin to remove any material from the top or bottom chords. When doubled up the overall width comes to 4 1/2" to 5". Obviously if this is supporting the wall above it would be very difficult--if not impossible--to get a plumbing line, hvac supply or hvac return into the above wall cavity. LVL's resolve the problem because they are not as wide as a doubled wood I-joists yet provide superior loading capability. It is also much faster to install a LVL instead of messing with the filler blocks required for doubled wood I-joists.

Are you all familiar with R502.8.2 and R802.7.2. Please note it says "or" not "and".

Also please note that R106.1 states "...where required....". Please do not assume that all jurisdictions are consumed by bureaucratic over-regulation.
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

While using the I-joist, it was commom to use two I-joist below a partition wall and allow a space between both joist as long as we catch the edge of the above plate. There was hardly ever a time we would use an LVL because of the expence. The plans provided by the I-joist manufacture was followed to a tee. We adjusted floor joist to avoid stools pipe drops, shower & tub drops, as long as we did not go over our o/c spacing. We actually had plans that were layed out perfect, the framers would layout the whole floor then adjust each joist to avoid plumbing and vent problems. Drilling an LVL or over cutting an I-joist was a tongue lashing and grounds for being let go, I just would'nt put up with it!
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

UB,

You are correct!

You had to understand the framers we used, it was better to say "no mas, no mas" knowing that you can drill an LVL. ;)
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

Well, for all you inspectors in the hinterlands that want to allow I Joists without an engineer's plan and stamp, the APA has just come out with a through design specification!

You can bet your 10 gallon hat that that Uncle Bob is going to be taking this to bed with him.
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

Uncle Bob:

One of my men is building this house, the engineer specified I Joists in a nice house like this. Because of a cold wet winter forecast (with global cooling), he asked permission to substitute Advantech for the 1 1/8" subfloor, the engineer said no, he wanted no OSB on the project. This blows my mind, specifying I Joists full of OSB, yet refusing OSB in the subfloor sheathing. The house

BTW, this is a few blocks from the site where Steve Jobs has been fighting for 30 years to get permits to tear down an old home and build a new one, he even donated it to the Secret Service while Chelsea was at Stanford, even heavy-handed politics like that don't work trying to get a permit around here.
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

I just can't liet a fun topic like this just die.... :twisted:

The I joists (should) always come with a layout, which will show point loads, etc. And the inspector needs to ask for them everytime... (even if you've seen this exact house 100 times). It's as much a training exercise for the framer as the inspector.

Need to look at the top and bottom flanges of these things for damage .. that requires an engineering fix (from the manufacturer's engineer.. not the DP for the house). And unlike dimensional lumber, any holes to accommodate the trades should be near the center.. the web is what transmits shear to the foundation.
 
Re: I don't like I-joists either.

How many inspectors here are enforcing their truss labeling requirements? Afterall, we wouldn't want our brave firefighters rushing into a home ablaze and fall to his/her death. It's my understanding that NIST is still working on a national standard, so most standards are local at the present time.

Tap to see New York/New Jersey requirements.



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