• Welcome to The Building Code Forum

    Your premier resource for building code knowledge.

    This forum remains free to the public thanks to the generous support of our Sawhorse Members and Corporate Sponsors. Their contributions help keep this community thriving and accessible.

    Want enhanced access to expert discussions and exclusive features? Learn more about the benefits here.

    Ready to upgrade? Log in and upgrade now.

Island receptacle?

ICE

ICE

MODERATOR
Staff member
Joined
Jun 23, 2011
Messages
13,804
Location
California
2020n NEC The situation is a 1000 ft2 covered ptio. There is a BBQ and a sink. There is an island. The inspector wrote a correction to add receptacles to the island. The contractor stated that there is already two receptacles mounted on posts that are attached to the island. I am not sure of the exact details and pictures might be forthcoming.

So my question is this: Does the section that governs receptacles spacing for kitchens apply to this outdoor installation. Would you stretch the wording: and similar areas of dwelling units to include the island in the back yard?


210,52(C) Countertops and Work Surfaces. In kitchens, pantries,breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for countertop and work surfaces that are 12 in.or wider shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C) (l )through (C) (3) and shall not be considered as the receptacle outlets required by 210.52(A).

(2) Island and Peninsular Countertops and Work Surfaces.Receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with210.52(C) (2) (a) and (C) (2) (b).

(a) At least one receptacle outlet shall be provided for the first 9 ft2, or fraction thereof, of the countertop or work surface. A receptacle outlet shall be provided for every additional 18 ft2, or fraction thereof, of the counter-top or work surface.
 
I would not apply kitchen requirements to a patio "kitchen". That's not code, that's just how we roll here.

I have seen some electrical code teachers state that an outdoor kitchen is still a kitchen and needs all the same circuits etc. Based only on words on the page and the definition of "kitchen" in the NEC, I think they are technically correct.

Kitchen - An area with a sink and permanent provisions for food preparation and cooking.
 
jar546 said:
A kitchen is a kitchen, regardless of where it’s located. It will be used in the same fashion, to cook and prepare food, whether inside or outside. The NEC rules apply to what we call “summer kitchens“ and we enforce it. That’s how we roll.
Click to expand...
Do you also require the small appliance circuits specified in 210.11(C)(1)?:

Small-Appliance Branch Circuits. In addition to the number of branch circuits required by other parts of this section, two or more 20-ampere small-appliance branch circuits shall be provided for all receptacle outlets specified by210.52(B).

Does your residential code require fire sprinklers in a kitchen?
 
From CBC 202:
DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete, independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation.
FACILITY. All or any portion of buildings, structures, site improvements, elements and pedestrian or vehicular routes located on a site.
KITCHEN OR KITCHENETTE. [DSA-AC] A room, space or area with equipment for the preparation and cooking of food.

I would say that a BBQ area is for cooking of food, but not preparation of food. Therefore it is not a kitchen or kitchenette. If the area is not enclosed, and an enclosed kitchen exists elsewhere in the unit I would say it is not a part of the dwelling unit.

Thought experiment: the stainless steel "counter" on either side of this grille is more than 12" wide - - should this be required to have outlets?

1741816735157.png
 
Yikes said:
From CBC 202:
DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete, independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation.
FACILITY. All or any portion of buildings, structures, site improvements, elements and pedestrian or vehicular routes located on a site.
KITCHEN OR KITCHENETTE. [DSA-AC] A room, space or area with equipment for the preparation and cooking of food.

I would say that a BBQ area is for cooking of food, but not preparation of food. Therefore it is not a kitchen or kitchenette. If the area is not enclosed, and an enclosed kitchen exists elsewhere in the unit I would say it is not a part of the dwelling unit.
Click to expand...
You state that a BBQ area is not for the preparation of food however, preparation is an open ticket and the presence of a sink tends to blur the lines.

Then you go on to state that if the area is not enclosed and there is already a kitchen elsewhere in the dwelling unit, the BBQ area would not qualify as a kitchen. Looking at the IRC exiting code there is an indication that the path of egress shall not pass through a kitchen...unless said kitchen is not defined by construction such as walls. So obviously, enclosure is not a requirement of a kitchen.

One thing that I did key on is the existing kitchen. Many jurisdictions will allow just one kitchen per dwelling unit. That has been the case with LA County and every Asian household wants an outdoor cooking area that includes a gas cooking appliance and a sink. The Planning Dept. would not allow that and so we had to bootleg them every time.
 
ICE said:
Do you also require the small appliance circuits specified in 210.11(C)(1)?:
Click to expand...
Yes, they are kitchens. About 100% of the time, they are designed compliant. I am in a good area.

ICE said:
Does your residential code require fire sprinklers in a kitchen?
Click to expand...
No, but our fire code does for all homes 7500 square feet or larger. 95% of the new homes constructed are greater than 7500 square feet.
 
jar546 said:
Yes, they are kitchens. About 100% of the time, they are designed compliant. I am in a good area.


No, but our fire code does for all homes 7500 square feet or larger. 95% of the new homes constructed are greater than 7500 square feet.
Click to expand...
So I take it that the various Planning Departments of the cities that you serve allow more than one kitchen per dwelling unit. Or perhaps the Planning Dept. does not see these as a kitchen. Of course it goes without saying that you and the Planning Departments are separate entities and what Planning thinks is moot to this discussion. However, I do have an interest in knowing. That's obvious in that I asked the question. And here again, you could have answered that question before I asked that question.

You contradict yourself on the sprinkler response. If you say that the area as so similar to a kitchen as to be a kitchen, how is it not required to have the same protection as the rest of the dwelling unit?

I hope that I touched all of the bases so this home run doesn't get called back.
 
ICE said:
So I take it that the various Planning Departments of the cities that you serve allow more than one kitchen per dwelling unit. Or perhaps the Planning Dept. does not see these as a kitchen. Of course it goes without saying that you and the Planning Departments are separate entities and what Planning thinks is moot to this discussion. However, I do have an interest in knowing. That's obvious in that I asked the question. And here again, you could have answered that question before I asked that question.

I hope that I touched all of the bases so this home run doesn't get called back.
Click to expand...
Our zoning code does not prohibit multiple kitchens in a home. If they place one outside, there are setbacks, but other than that, these are not an issue. If someone wants two kitchens inside on different levels and one outside, they can do it. All new homes have to get approval from the Planning Board before they can apply for a building permit. This is a non-issue.
 
Look back at why all of the requirements in code exist in the first place. "Building codes are written in blood." Tragic events change codes. Why are all of the various NEC requirements in place for kitchens? They're there to protect the life & safety of all users. People will complain, "well I'm not going to use it that way" or whatever, we shouldn't be swayed by those arguments. If you can afford to install an outdoor kitchen, then you should do it right. They'll kick and scream, but if you make them do it, chances are they will end up using those outlets and be glad they're there. What's the additional cost now compared to trying to add it later?

The one concession I have made is allowing the exclusion of a finished outlet in a specific location when the proper circuit is provided, wired, in place, and ready to go. They admitted to me later that they ended up installing the outlet shortly after they moved in.
 
jar546 said:
Our zoning code does not prohibit multiple kitchens in a home. If they place one outside, there are setbacks, but other than that, these are not an issue. If someone wants two kitchens inside on different levels and one outside, they can do it. All new homes have to get approval from the Planning Board before they can apply for a building permit. This is a non-issue.
Click to expand...
Alrighty then. So if the main dwelling has a sprinkler system and a covered patio is built with what you label as a kitchen, do you require a sprinkler system for that kitchen? How about a covered patio with no kitchen? Would it matter if the patio is attached to the dwelling or freestanding?

A non-issue there is likely a big deal elsewhere.
 
ICE said:
Alrighty then. So if the main dwelling has a sprinkler system and a covered patio is built with what you label as a kitchen, do you require a sprinkler system for that kitchen? How about a covered patio with no kitchen? Would it matter if the patio is attached to the dwelling or freestanding?

A non-issue there is likely a big deal elsewhere.
Click to expand...
Whatever is required under NFPA 13D would be the answer the the Florida Fire Prevention Code. I don't know but I can ask our Fire Marshal if you need to know.
 
Yikes said:
From CBC 202:
DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete, independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation.
FACILITY. All or any portion of buildings, structures, site improvements, elements and pedestrian or vehicular routes located on a site.
KITCHEN OR KITCHENETTE. [DSA-AC] A room, space or area with equipment for the preparation and cooking of food.

I would say that a BBQ area is for cooking of food, but not preparation of food. Therefore it is not a kitchen or kitchenette. If the area is not enclosed, and an enclosed kitchen exists elsewhere in the unit I would say it is not a part of the dwelling unit.

Thought experiment: the stainless steel "counter" on either side of this grille is more than 12" wide - - should this be required to have outlets?

View attachment 15271
Click to expand...
You show a picture of a free-standing mobile bbq grill. But what if the homeowner has built a stone island with concrete counter and the bbq grill is built-in. Now they have room for food prep. Maybe a blender for marguiritas.
 
ICE said:
2020n NEC The situation is a 1000 ft2 covered ptio. There is a BBQ and a sink. There is an island. The inspector wrote a correction to add receptacles to the island. The contractor stated that there is already two receptacles mounted on posts that are attached to the island. I am not sure of the exact details and pictures might be forthcoming.

So my question is this: Does the section that governs receptacles spacing for kitchens apply to this outdoor installation. Would you stretch the wording: and similar areas of dwelling units to include the island in the back yard?


210,52(C) Countertops and Work Surfaces. In kitchens, pantries,breakfast rooms, dining rooms, and similar areas of dwelling units, receptacle outlets for countertop and work surfaces that are 12 in.or wider shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C) (l )through (C) (3) and shall not be considered as the receptacle outlets required by 210.52(A).

(2) Island and Peninsular Countertops and Work Surfaces.Receptacle outlets shall be installed in accordance with210.52(C) (2) (a) and (C) (2) (b).

(a) At least one receptacle outlet shall be provided for the first 9 ft2, or fraction thereof, of the countertop or work surface. A receptacle outlet shall be provided for every additional 18 ft2, or fraction thereof, of the counter-top or work surface.
Click to expand...
Get a mod to the 2023 where they are no longer required...Of course, you said they might already be there in which case 2023 is bad because then when they are there, they have to be on top of the counter, but you did say they were on a post....
 
Yikes said:
From CBC 202:
DWELLING UNIT. A single unit providing complete, independent living facilities for one or more persons, including permanent provisions for living, sleeping, eating, cooking and sanitation.
FACILITY. All or any portion of buildings, structures, site improvements, elements and pedestrian or vehicular routes located on a site.
KITCHEN OR KITCHENETTE. [DSA-AC] A room, space or area with equipment for the preparation and cooking of food.

I would say that a BBQ area is for cooking of food, but not preparation of food. Therefore it is not a kitchen or kitchenette. If the area is not enclosed, and an enclosed kitchen exists elsewhere in the unit I would say it is not a part of the dwelling unit.

Thought experiment: the stainless steel "counter" on either side of this grille is more than 12" wide - - should this be required to have outlets?

View attachment 15271
Click to expand...
BBQ NOT permanent
"...including permanent provisions...
I also do not see hot plates or countertop microwaves as "... permanent provisions..."
 
www.nfpa.org

Kitchen Island Outlets and the NEC

A look at how the past three editions of the NEC deal with kitchen island and peninsula receptacle requirements
www.nfpa.org www.nfpa.org

2023 NEC

(2) Island and Peninsular Countertops and Work Surfaces
Receptacle outlets, if installed to serve an island or peninsular countertop or work surface, shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(3). If a receptacle outlet is not provided to serve an island or peninsular countertop or work surface, provisions shall be provided at the island or peninsula for future addition of a receptacle outlet to serve the island or peninsular countertop or work surface.
(3) Receptacle Outlet Location
Receptacle outlets shall be located in one or more of the following:
  1. On or above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above, a countertop or work surface
  2. In a countertop using receptacle outlet assemblies listed for use in countertops
  3. In a work surface using receptacle outlet assemblies listed for use in work surfaces or listed for use in countertops
Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, sinks, or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1), Exception No. 1, or appliances occupying assigned spaces shall not be considered as these required outlets.

My understanding this section does not require a receptacle to be installed anymore.
Provisions for a future receptable have to be provided.
This section also prohibits the receptable from being installed below the countertop or work surface. They would no longer be allowed at the end of the island which is a pretty common installation practice
 
mtlogcabin said:
www.nfpa.org

Kitchen Island Outlets and the NEC

A look at how the past three editions of the NEC deal with kitchen island and peninsula receptacle requirements
www.nfpa.org www.nfpa.org

2023 NEC

(2) Island and Peninsular Countertops and Work Surfaces
Receptacle outlets, if installed to serve an island or peninsular countertop or work surface, shall be installed in accordance with 210.52(C)(3). If a receptacle outlet is not provided to serve an island or peninsular countertop or work surface, provisions shall be provided at the island or peninsula for future addition of a receptacle outlet to serve the island or peninsular countertop or work surface.
(3) Receptacle Outlet Location
Receptacle outlets shall be located in one or more of the following:
  1. On or above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above, a countertop or work surface
  2. In a countertop using receptacle outlet assemblies listed for use in countertops
  3. In a work surface using receptacle outlet assemblies listed for use in work surfaces or listed for use in countertops
Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, sinks, or rangetops as covered in 210.52(C)(1), Exception No. 1, or appliances occupying assigned spaces shall not be considered as these required outlets.

My understanding this section does not require a receptacle to be installed anymore.
Provisions for a future receptable have to be provided.
This section also prohibits the receptable from being installed below the countertop or work surface. They would no longer be allowed at the end of the island which is a pretty common installation practice
Click to expand...
Is there a definition of the word "provisions"?
For example, is it just an outlet box and conduit stub-out? Does the conduit/route have to go all the way back to the panel? Does the panel need a dedicated circuit?
 
Yeah, that's a kitchen. I was envisioning a glorified picnic table with a portable grill next to it.
 
There is a receptacle on each side of the BBQ and the sink. There were none on the rest of the counter, The inspector required a receptacle as is shown in the pictures. They are located on the outside because there is cabinets on the inside, They are 10" below the surface of the countertop that has an 18" overhang.

You are correct about affording receptacles. Obviously that is not the issue. The issue is forcing them to install them where they are now a code violation. So some will call this a kitchen. Where does that kitchen end? On the right is the exterior wall of the house. If all of that counter and cabinetry on the left is kitchen then I must assume that the wall on the right is also "kitchen". Now there needs to be receptacles on that wall.
IMG_3025.jpg


IMG_3024.jpg
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top