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Permit Expiration

Buelligan

Buelligan

REGISTERED
Joined
Oct 7, 2010
Messages
126
Location
Eastern Panhandle WV
Ok folks got a question for you. The permit for the foundation in the below picture was started in 2004! We have had them complete small sections and portions every 6 months while also asking for extensions.

We have received another extension but have decided to reject this request and in addition have the foundation evaulated and a new permit applied for. This foundation has been at this point and exposed to the elements for at least 12-15 years.



Thoughts?

Wrightfoundation.jpg
 
From 2004? Not a chance we would allow that to happen.

From 2014? Not a chance we would allow that to happen.

So, our building code was amended. It allows all permits to be good for 12 months. The first extension request is for an additional 6 months, for free. The second permit extension request is for another additional 6 months but costs 25% of the original permit fee, so on and so forth. Eventually, they will get tired of paying that 25%.

Simply consider this permit abandoned. When they decide to move forward, they can re-apply. At that time they can have the evaluation report of that mess provided to you.
 
Look to see what the by-law was then, and what provisional by-laws/regulations followed. I'd be stunned if there wasn't some language that will allow you to consider the permit abandoned/revoked/rescinded.

I would not issue a new permit without documents from a qualified engineer stating that the corroded flustercluck shown in the image was actually suitable.
 
Inspector Gadget said:
Look to see what the by-law was then, and what provisional by-laws/regulations followed. I'd be stunned if there wasn't some language that will allow you to consider the permit abandoned/revoked/rescinded.

I would not issue a new permit without documents from a qualified engineer stating that the corroded flustercluck shown in the image was actually suitable.
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US codes generally state it can only be deemed abandoned if work is discontinued for more than 6 months.
 
rktect 1 said:
So, our building code was amended. It allows all permits to be good for 12 months. The first extension request is for an additional 6 months, for free. The second permit extension request is for another additional 6 months but costs 25% of the original permit fee, so on and so forth. Eventually, they will get tired of paying that 25%.
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I like this, I'm going to float it up the chain. Thanks.
 
What are the winter temperatures around the site? I would also be concerned about the footings having been subjected to frost heaves over the past 14/15 years. Definitely appropriate to ask for an engineer's evaluation at this point.
 
Buelligan said:
We have had them complete small sections
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So the building department instructs the permittee to advance the work to some degree and that erases concern for the longevity of the permit? Now after twenty years the AHJ plans on pulling the rug out? Send a letter stating that after twenty years the AHJ has determined that the project is abandoned and there is no active permit... do not continue construction... like they would anyway.
 
Yankee Chronicler said:
What are the winter temperatures around the site?
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Do you use air-entrained concrete year round in your concrete?
An engineer would need to know that.
It is used year by the concrete suppliers in our area.
Benefits of air-entrainment include:

  • Improved resistance of concrete to severe frost action or freeze/thaw cycles
  • High resistance to cycles of wetting and drying
  • High degree of workability
  • High degree of durability
Dosage: Typical air entrainment ranges from 5% to 8% of the volume of concrete.
 
According to UpCodes, West Virginia uses an amended version of the 2018 IBC. Here's what the code says about permit expiration:

105.5 Expiration. Every permit issued shall become invalid unless the work on the site authorized by such permit is commenced within 180 days after its issuance, or if the work authorized on the site by such permit is suspended or abandoned for a period of 180 days after the time the work is commenced. The building official is authorized to grant, in writing, one or more extensions of time, for periods not more than 180 days each. The extension shall be requested in writing and justifiable cause demonstrated.
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Technically, they can come on the site once every 179 days and do ... something ... for an hour or two and they don't even need to request an extension. The problem lies in documenting this, and this applies to both the applicant and the building department. if they're going to play that game, how do they document that they were on the site on day 179 and worked on ... something ... for an hour or two hours? Conversely, if they claim that they did ... how can the building department prove that they didn't?

It was far less extreme than this case but at my previous job we had a guy who was finishing out his own basement, and the permit had been open for about six years (it began before I joined the department and, as far as I can remember, it was still on-going when I left). He would call us for an inspection about every fifth month, just like clockwork, and one of us would go out and look at the three or four new studs he had added since the last inspection. It was a nuisance, but the boss decided that was less trouble than what would have been involved if we had revoked the permit and started a legal battle over whether or not we had the right to do that.
 
Yankee Chronicler said:
It was far less extreme than this case but at my previous job we had a guy who was finishing out his own basement, and the permit had been open for about six years (it began before I joined the department and, as far as I can remember, it was still on-going when I left). He would call us for an inspection about every fifth month, just like clockwork, and one of us would go out and look at the three or four new studs he had added since the last inspection. It was a nuisance, but the boss decided that was less trouble than what would have been involved if we had revoked the permit and started a legal battle over whether or not we had the right to do that.
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I've never heard a better reason for re-inspection fees.
 
Opposite to some of the stories on this thread.

I built my own shop a few years ago. Decided to do it all myself except for the foundation, so I hired a foundation contractor and secured the permit. Well, as is so often the case these days, I got stood up by the foundation contractor. So, I just did it myself. So I started off behind and got froze out by winter. Still, I managed to get the foundation approved within the 6 months. Fast forward a bit, I had to go through the state for electrical, all fine. Called to schedule my framing from the local and was told my permit expired. I asked how that could happen, as it had only been a couple of months since my foundation inspection. They explained that no matter what, all permits expired in 6 months. I asked them if they had ever read the code section on permit expiration. They said they "didn't do it that way", but that it was OK, all I had to do was pay the permit fee again to reinstate it. I politely informed them that I didn't really need their permit anymore. Funny though, even without the final inspection or C/C, it landed on my tax record, so I guess they didn't care either.

It was hard to accept a local AHJ's authority to begin with (the plan review was 100% inaccurate) but I did. I could not accept what I felt was extortion, and frankly a racket. I ran into the CBO a couple of years later at a code conference (I knew who he was, he did not know who I was). He was the same guy that did the plan review. It all made sense to me at that point.
 
Sifu said:
Opposite to some of the stories on this thread.

I built my own shop a few years ago. Decided to do it all myself except for the foundation, so I hired a foundation contractor and secured the permit. Well, as is so often the case these days, I got stood up by the foundation contractor. So, I just did it myself. So I started off behind and got froze out by winter. Still, I managed to get the foundation approved within the 6 months. Fast forward a bit, I had to go through the state for electrical, all fine. Called to schedule my framing from the local and was told my permit expired. I asked how that could happen, as it had only been a couple of months since my foundation inspection. They explained that no matter what, all permits expired in 6 months. I asked them if they had ever read the code section on permit expiration. They said they "didn't do it that way", but that it was OK, all I had to do was pay the permit fee again to reinstate it. I politely informed them that I didn't really need their permit anymore. Funny though, even without the final inspection or C/C, it landed on my tax record, so I guess they didn't care either.

It was hard to accept a local AHJ's authority to begin with (the plan review was 100% inaccurate) but I did. I could not accept what I felt was extortion, and frankly a racket. I ran into the CBO a couple of years later at a code conference (I knew who he was, he did not know who I was). He was the same guy that did the plan review. It all made sense to me at that point.
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Exactly my position...If I owe them a service they paid for I need to do it or refund the unused portion when I expire the permit...
 
steveray said:
Exactly my position...If I owe them a service they paid for I need to do it or refund the unused portion when I expire the permit...
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What's worse is that they didn't notify me, warn me, explain it to me until I requested an inspection and couldn't. I asked about this too, and was told they "don't do that". If any department I have ever worked for acted that way, heads would roll...justifiably. In some though, well they deserve the scorn they get.
 
In my small town: permit is issued, work must begin within 6 months. Permit is good for 2 years, at which point I can/usually will issue a 1 year extension. If the project is incomplete after the 1 year extension, the applicant must apply for a new permit for the outstanding work.

We have broad language in our building bylaw with the ability to require engineering if the project is problematic, which would be the case with the abandoned foundation.
 
Sifu said:
What's worse is that they didn't notify me, warn me, explain it to me until I requested an inspection and couldn't. I asked about this too, and was told they "don't do that". If any department I have ever worked for acted that way, heads would roll...justifiably. In some though, well they deserve the scorn they get.
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That's an interesting point. The IBC and the IRC both state that the permit shall expire if no work is done in a 180-day period (it does NOT say the work has to be completed within 180 days), but nothing says the building department has to notify the owner if/when a permit is about to expire, or has expired. Expiration is automatic. The building official doesn't have to do anything to make the permit invalid -- if no work is done in a 180-day period the permit IS invalid.

IBC:
105.5 Expiration. Every permit issued shall become invalid unless the work on the site authorized by such permit is commenced within 180 days after its issuance, or if the work authorized on the site by such permit is suspended or abandoned for a period of 180 days after the time the work is commenced.
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IRC:
R105.5 Expiration. Every permit issued shall become invalid unless the work authorized by such permit is commenced within 180 days after its issuance or after commencement of work if more than 180 days pass between inspections.
Click to expand...

The codes also provide that permit applications expire after 180 days. Especially for commercial work, it's rare to receive a set of construction documents that can be approved on the first try. We've had some go through six re-submittals, and we had to hold our noses to approve them even at that point. On some, if we sent out a notice of rejection after the first review, with comments -- that's the last we hear of it. We try to keep tabs on all pending applications and we try to send out a reminder if we haven't heard anything after five months of inactivity, but we sometimes miss.
 
Yankee Chronicler said:
but nothing says the building department has to notify the owner if/when a permit is about to expire, or has expired.
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That is absolutely correct. I set up our system so that "will expire" letters are posted to the applicant's online account and emailed to the applicant and contractor 30 days before the permit expires. This has cut down tremendously on expired permits and generated revenue from those who request an extension with a reasonable explanation. These 30-day notices work excellently.
 
Yankee Chronicler said:
That's an interesting point. The IBC and the IRC both state that the permit shall expire if no work is done in a 180-day period (it does NOT say the work has to be completed within 180 days), but nothing says the building department has to notify the owner if/when a permit is about to expire, or has expired. Expiration is automatic. The building official doesn't have to do anything to make the permit invalid -- if no work is done in a 180-day period the permit IS invalid.
Click to expand...
And the balance of their FEE FOR SERVICE should be refunded or it is theft.....And our new IRC amendment calls for 6 month expiration with an inspection gap....Which makes me more of a PM in their project...JOY!


R105.5 Expiration of Permit​


Every permit issued shall become invalid unless the work authorized by such permit is commenced within 180 days after its issuance or after commencement of work if more than 180 days pass between inspections. The building official is authorized to grant, in writing, one or more extensions of time, for periods of not more than 180 days each. The extension shall be requested in writing and justifiable cause shall be demonstrated.
 
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