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PEX penetrations through 1 hr wall - California - help

J

jakesktm

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Joined
Jan 29, 2021
Messages
30
Location
California
In the plumbing code it does specify: "Combustible piping installations shall be protected in accordance with the appropriate fire resistance rating requirements in the building code that list the acceptable area, height, and type of construction for use in specific occupancies to assure compliance and integrity of the fire resistance rating prescribed." Section 1401.1
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Inspector wants metal penetrations in a one hour wall even though it isn't specified in the building code?

Pex is rated for up to three-hour fire assemblies per ASTM E119. The problem is what comprises the "assembly" - the wall or the penetration?
 
Not sure your question

Might want to restate

If it is a true rated wall,,, normally the entire wall is the Assembly.

If you put a hole in it or run something into or thru it,,,

Ye shall properly fire stop it,,,, with approved method, per size of penetration and the material you are penetrating it with

BOTH sides normally

So what is missing??
 
What firestop assembly are you proposing? Depending upon the firestopping system used, some may require a metal piper where the penetration must be rated for 3-hrs.
 
I have been following this on another forum, not my issue but i can add some details. Its in a residence, he has about 8 pex pipes going through the ceiling of the basement, when complete the ceiling will have one layer of 5/8” gwb on the living side, and he’s calling that the 1 hr rated surface. He put in a piece of horizontal 2x12 blocking with holes drilled for the pex, one pex per hole. Very neatly done. The inspector has rejected it without quoting a code section. Apparently the issue is that the face of the 2x12 was intentionally set 5/8” below the bottom of the floor joists, such that when the gwb is applied to the ceiling the face of the 2x will be flush with the face of the rock.
 
So what type of residential construction requires a 1 hour rated ceiling? not a SFH, Duplex requires 1 hour between penetrations speaks to penetration's.

If we are talking about basement ceiling protecting light weigh floor systems constructions 302.13 allow penetrations
 
Many fire-rated penetrations for plastic (PEX, PVC, etc.) require a metal sleeve, with the space between the pipe and sleeve filled with an intumescent compound. In case of fire the intumescent swells up and crushes the pipe to keep hot gasses from getting through the wall or floor.
 
OK we are at an impasse. The owner is furious with the City inspector. I removed the blocking completely and we are at square one.

This is a duplex application two story - one unit above and one below with plumbing routed through the space between floors.

This utility room sits outside the main downstairs unit in a dedicated utility space that is indoor/outdoor with access to the between floors space.

originally the ceiling of this room was not sheetrocked and all plumbing went vertically to the floor joist assembly above and then horizontally between floors to the wall access point/s.

Now - the inspector wants the utility room fire blocked from the between floors space as well as the ceiling and that is where we are:/ In order to sheet rock now I will have to completely disconnect the plumbing and figure out how to run it through sheetrock.

Seems to me the inspector is fire barrier paranoid and wants everything in that utility room sealed:/ He even mentioned the homeowner install linked smoke alarms :0

So I removed the blocking and the downstairs tenant is without water.
 
jakesktm said:
OK we are at an impasse. The owner is furious with the City inspector. I removed the blocking completely and we are at square one.

This is a duplex application two story - one unit above and one below with plumbing routed through the space between floors.

This utility room sits outside the main downstairs unit in a dedicated utility space that is indoor/outdoor with access to the between floors space.

originally the ceiling of this room was not sheetrocked and all plumbing went vertically to the floor joist assembly above and then horizontally between floors to the wall access point/s.

Now - the inspector wants the utility room fire blocked from the between floors space as well as the ceiling and that is where we are:/ In order to sheet rock now I will have to completely disconnect the plumbing and figure out how to run it through sheetrock.

Seems to me the inspector is fire barrier paranoid and wants everything in that utility room sealed:/ He even mentioned the homeowner install linked smoke alarms :0

So I removed the blocking and the downstairs tenant is without water.
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So are there approved plans for this job??

Do they show any rated assemblies??? Or state that they should be rated?


Is this a one horse/ inspector town??? Or if not talk to his boss.
 
cda said:
So are there approved plans for this job??

Do they show any rated assemblies??? Or state that they should be rated?


Is this a one horse/ inspector town??? Or if not talk to his boss.
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Yes there are approved plans but no assemblies on the detail and certainly nothing about the plumbing penetrating sheetrock. No mention at all.

Yes this is a one inspector city. And he is new, 6 months on the job.

City planning and building department are the same and there is no city planner or director.

We can only appeal to the city manager who is not a contractor.
 
jakesktm said:
Yes there are approved plans but no assemblies on the detail and certainly nothing about the plumbing penetrating sheetrock. No mention at all.

Yes this is a one inspector city. And he is new, 6 months on the job.

City planning and building department are the same and there is no city planner or director.

We can only appeal to the city manager who is not a contractor.
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ok before you go to the boss

Ask the nice inspector for the sections that these requirements are from.

IF supplied review them to see if they apply...

If he cannot supply them,,,, HE cannot enforce them,,, At that time it is time for face to face with city manager,,, with documentation in hand
 
cda said:
ok before you go to the boss

Ask the nice inspector for the sections that these requirements are from.

IF supplied review them to see if they apply...

If he cannot supply them,,,, HE cannot enforce them,,, At that time it is time for face to face with city manager,,, with documentation in hand
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I spoke with the engineer and he is getting an assembly together. I have asked the building inspector for the code section and have not yet received it. I will let you guys know what thee assembly comes back as.
 
jakesktm said:
In order to sheet rock now I will have to completely disconnect the plumbing and figure out how to run it through sheetrock.
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Step back and take a deep breath and a cold beer. In commercial construction the sheetrockers close up plumbing chases all the time without removing the pipes.
 
Jake, you posted this on another forum and included a good picture. Can you post that here? I’m thinking you need go move the 2x blocking up so it is flush with the studs, and then just run a layer of 5/8 gwb for the ceiling.
 
e hilton said:
Jake, you posted this on another forum and included a good picture. Can you post that here? I’m thinking you need go move the 2x blocking up so it is flush with the studs, and then just run a layer of 5/8 gwb for the ceiling.
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I cannot link the photo because it isn't hosted?
 
jakesktm said:
I will have to completely disconnect the plumbing and figure out how to run it through sheetrock.
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I think your inspector is correct. You are penetrating a rated floor assembly (which also probably doesn't meet the IIC requirements). The penetration needs to be firestopped. In commercial construction they "prerock" the areas where there are penetrations during rough-in. Install enough gyp to make all your penetrations and firestop, then when you rock the rest of the room, you butt up to the prerocked area and tape the joint.

Approved plans form the city are no defense against code violations found later during construction. Also, firestopping is rarely submitted for permit. The contractor is responsible for getting all the penetration firestop designed and providing the inspector with the listed systems at the field inspection.

This inspector sounds like he's just doing his job.
 
cda said:
That is a work of art,,, How could some one say disturb that???

The holes not not four times as big as you need them. The wood fit is pretty.
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It is not an approved 1-hour assembly. As others have suggested, placing it higher between the studs to allow 5/8" GypX to be attached to the joists "could" be acceptable, although we are still stuck with 18 individual penetrations. I guess I was thinking by assembling multiple penetrations onto one block it would reduce the overall penetration to one or two blocks that could be seamed. However it is now apparent that it isn't that simple. There has to be an approved assembly, either by a UL or ASTM approved product on the market or UL approved assembly. Haven't found one yet.
 
jakesktm said:
It is not an approved 1-hour assembly. As others have suggested, placing it higher between the studs to allow 5/8" GypX to be attached to the joists "could" be acceptable, although we are still stuck with 18 individual penetrations. I guess I was thinking by assembling multiple penetrations onto one block it would reduce the overall penetration to one or two blocks that could be seamed. However it is now apparent that it isn't that simple. There has to be an approved assembly, either by a UL or ASTM approved product on the market or UL approved assembly. Haven't found one yet.
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Call Hilti, they'll get you a system and the documentation in a day or two.

https://www.hilti.com/c/CLS_FIRESTOP_PROTECTION_7131/CLS_FIRESTOP_BLOCKS_PLUGS_CUSHIONS_7131/r5253
 
redeyedfly said:
I think your inspector is correct. You are penetrating a rated floor assembly (which also probably doesn't meet the IIC requirements). The penetration needs to be firestopped. In commercial construction they "prerock" the areas where there are penetrations during rough-in. Install enough gyp to make all your penetrations and firestop, then when you rock the rest of the room, you butt up to the prerocked area and tape the joint.

Approved plans form the city are no defense against code violations found later during construction. Also, firestopping is rarely submitted for permit. The contractor is responsible for getting all the penetration firestop designed and providing the inspector with the listed systems at the field inspection.

This inspector sounds like he's just doing his job.
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I don't disagree here. The frustration I think the inspector, myself and the homeowner is having is the subjectivity as to what constitutes an adequate solution. We have discussed placing the manifold into a fire rated pull box flush mounted in the wall and running the plumbing through the top plates. We have discussed intumescent fire caulk. We have discussed gypx rock, etc. It will depend on what the homeowner and the inspector arrive at because I'm not eating this work when plans did not include a proper fire assembly :/
 
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