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Pool Closed Until Further Notice

incognito said:
Funny stuff Msradell. And I would be willing to bet you're in the front row on Sunday morning as well.New construction and a percentage of each remodel project should strive to meet ADA regs. But this "over the top" bull "stuff" of requiring existing to modify or be fined is crazy. It's easy to bluster about civil rights and cost not being an issue when you are not the one having to pay for this nonsense.
Any project that is less than twenty years old, there is no excuse

Any project that is older than twenty years, If access is not readily achievable to provide an accessible means of entry and exit at every pool, then the entity must remove barriers to the extent that it is readily achievable to do so. It is important to note that the barrier removal obligation is a continuing one, and it is expected that a business will take steps to improve accessibility over time.
 
Sifu said:
But unlike you I don't pretend to know everything.
If you don't like what I post, report it, or don't read what I post.

ostrich-head-in-sand.jpg
 
The ADA is not code and does not belong here, any more than asking building officials to enforce Immigration or OSHA laws. Chapter 11 of the IBC does address disabilities, but doesn't address swimming pool lifts, California reserved Chapter 11, but does have Chapter 11-A and 11-B, 11-B does address swimming pool lifts, but Mark's original post addressed the Cato Institute's comments nationally:

Mark said:
I think Carroll probably goes too far when he suggests that the Obama administration made the rules unreasonable in order to give its friends in the ADA bar more litigation to file. The problem is more that this administration (and not just this one) has outsourced its thinking on the law to advocates in the legal academia-disabled rights-”public interest law” community, which tends to embrace interpretations and applications of the law geared to advance ambitious versions of social change. In the pool case, the federal appointee in charge (according to this blog post) was Samuel Bagenstos, who after his stint in the Obama Justice Department has now returned to legal academia, where he is perhaps the leading proponent of expansive ADA interpretation. (His view of abusive ADA suits — he puts the term “abusive” in quotation marks — is here.) Academia’s other best-known advocate of an expansively interpreted ADA (and a drafter of the law) is Chai Feldblum of Georgetown Law, who serves the Obama administration as head of the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.Don’t look to Republicans for relief on this. The Bush administrations both pere et fils were consistently wretched on it, and a large bloc of GOP members of Congress predictably joins the Democrats in opposing legislative ideas for even modest rollback of the ADA’s most extreme applications.
Mark's second post addressed Arizona attempts at Federal law compliance, not building code compliance, so why are we even talking about Federal law compliance, especially on something so contentious as ADA?
 
conarb said:
so why are we even talking about Federal law compliance, especially on something so contentious as ADA?
#1 If you don't like what I post, report it, or don't read what I post.

#2 Many states, including CA, does require, By statute, the compliance to ADA

#3 Many states Do not use Chapter 11 as their accessibility code, but instead enforce the ADA as their accessibility code.

#4 It is part of the industry and pertinent, If you think it is irrelevant don't read the posts
 
It is real simple, close the pool, back fill it, and make an accessible butterfly garden.......

This is a case of making governemnt regulations that are costly with limited returns........ if you don't agree with it, don't build a pool at your motel/hotel.

It is that simple.....
 
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Swimming pools at [ most ] motels / hotels are a desirable

feature to attract families / business.

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ADA Defense Lawyer: What Does The Ada Pool Lift Compliance Extension Mean To You? | By Jim Butler

JMBM Global Hospitality Group®

http://www.hospitalitynet.org/news/154000320/4055339.html

ADA Defense Lawyer: What does the ADA pool lift compliance extension of May 15 mean for you?

First, let's be clear that all compliance dates have NOT been extended!

Extended deadline for pool lifts is May 15

Responding to concerns expressed by the hotel, pool and spa manufacturing industries, and those of a number of U.S. Congressmen, on March 15, the White House plunged into the swimming pool access controversy by issuing a 60-day an extension to implement the 2010 ADA Standards for pool lifts. As a result of this action, the new deadline for installing pool lifts is May 15, 2012, but that too may change.

March 15 deadline remains for all other provisions of new ADA Standards

The March 15, 2012 compliance date remains in effect for all other provisions of the 2010 Standards. The Department of Justice will soon publish a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking giving the public 15 days to express their views. We expect the hotel and pool and spa industries will take a much more active role in the public comment process than they did when the 2010 Standards were initially open for comment.

Events have been moving very fast when the official government position changes 180 degrees in less than 24 hours. And that his what has happened. So my ADA expert partner, Marty Orlick, and I thought it might be helpful to explain what is going on, and what it likely means to you.

Here it is...

Where has all the confusion come from?

The 2010 Standards (which were to go into effect March 15, 2012) do not mention "fixed" pool lifts. The confusion over the new ADA pool lift requirements intensified on January 31, 2012 when the Department of Justice (DOJ) "clarified" its position on pool lifts in a letter to the AH&LA stating that:

•Pool lifts must be "fixed" to pool and spa decks at all times that the pool or spa is open to the public. Portable pool lifts would not comply with the new Standards (unless a fixed pool lift was not readily achievable), and

•Pool lifts cannot be shared among different water elements (i.e. a pool and spa).

The DOJ's clarification that only fixed pool lifts are permissible at pools and spas caught most by surprise and raised more questions than it answered. This was a significant change in the 2010 Standards which make no mention of "fixed" pool lifts. Many had relied on the published 2010 Standards in an effort to manufacture enough pool lifts to meet the needs of the hotel industry, and the diligent have been purchasing and installing them.

Pool lift manufacturers and distributors have been in full production for months, making and selling portable pool lifts which they proudly advertised on their websites as "ADA Compliant" or as "meeting all of the ADA requirements." Many thought these portable devices were preferable, because they could be utilized when disabled guests needed them and be shared between the pool and spas as needed.

This DOJ's pronouncement 18 months after promulgation of the new rules sent tsunami-sized waves through the hotel and pool and spa lift industries.

A huge gap to be bridged

Pool and spa industry estimates are that less than 5,000 pool lifts were sold in the U.S. in 2011 and that there are an estimated 300,000 public pools and spas in the country that need to comply with the 2010 Standards. There was no ready source to provide an adequate number of pool lifts to meet this demand, despite desperate efforts by manufacturers to design and produce them.

Critics say that the DOJ did not adequately take into consideration whether the pool lift industry could scale to such numbers, particularly for fixed pool lifts, in such a short time. Although there are some pool lift manufacturers who designed fixed devices, many did not.

Our hotel clients report that fixed pool lift demand cannot be met. Since January 31, 2012, manufacturers have been working round the clock to develop retrofit solutions to "fix" their lifts to pool and spa decks.

Why relief was/is needed

Hotel owners and operators contacted their elected representatives who in turn contacted the DOJ and the White House to express concerns about promoting access to pools and spas for the disabled community while recognizing the legitimate interests of public safety and hotel operations.

With less than 2 months' notice, installing fixed pool lifts was all but impossible. These lifts simply do not exist in the quantities necessary to meet the demand.

The lack of inventory and manufacturing capability for compliant pool lifts and the focused efforts of the American Hotel and Lodging Association (AHL&A) played significant parts in today's executive decision to postpone the compliance date for pool lifts.

What you should do now...

So, the compliance date for installing pool lifts is now May 15, 2012 and may be extended again. At this point, the 2010 technical Standards are unresolved. You should have a plan in place to comply with the new pool and spa access requirements. However, you may be well advised to put your toe in the water before you take the plunge to buy pool lifts until the DOJ determines precisely what types of pool lifts satisfy with the Standards.

JMBM's ADA Compliance and Litigation Group has been working closely with design professionals and hotel owners to develop solutions to pool lift compliance challenge.
 
Seems like we have another one of Jeff's (requested) Hot Topics.

If you saw a veteran with service connected disabilities, ..missing

limbs, other, would you also deny their access to a swimming pool.

Please keep in mind that if they have the service connected disabilities,

they likely have them for protecting the freedom to have that business

open in the first place, and that most, if not all U.S. citizens have

the LUXURY to enjoy those freedoms. And for the record, our U.S.

freedoms are a luxury, but DO come at a very high price.

Could it be that the price of freedom for all in the U.S., is becoming

a little more visible?

If a business owner is going to deny a veteran access to their

swimming pool, at least thank them for their service in the process!

.
 
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The articles are relevant in my State as building codes. Discrimination is discrimination, and we wouldn't need laws to protect against it if it was not prevalent, even in new construction.

I doubt we would have State regulations requiring a minimum building code, or it's enforcement mandate, if everyone actually built safe structures.
 
mark handler said:
And how is making a pool accessible to all, reverse discrimination?
The issue of the pool has nothing to do with reverse discrimination. Earlier you posted about any kind of discrimination, I made comment about reverse discrimination to see what you're reply was to it. For whatever reason most civil rights activist ignore or refuse to acknowledge the affects of reverse discrimination. Countries have outlawed civil rights because of reverse discrimination. I am not on one side or the other; I just enforce the code and try hard to make people aware of the ADA.

mark handler said:
So once again, you deflect and dismiss it. That's why we have the issue, it has been deflected and dismissed for twenty years.
I believe (JMO) that property owners and business owners who had pools before the law was passed should only be made to comply with the 20% rule as they remodel. New construction should comply, and those who ignored the law in the last 20 years.
 
Pool owners face new ADA accessibility regulation

http://www.memphisdailynews.com/news/2012/mar/20/easing-access/

By DAVID ROYER

New federal regulations requiring chair lifts and other renovations to public swimming pools went into effect Thursday, March 15, but the tangle of new requirements is leaving many pool owners treading water while they wait for clarity on the rules.

The update to the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1991 was passed in 2010 and is designed to make public facilities – including the swimming pools in many hotels and health clubs – more accessible for the disabled.

“It’s so complicated, and people are really holding off on making decisions because they keep changing stuff,” said June Whitehurst, co-owner of Mid South Pool Builders in Collierville, who said she lately has been taking multiple calls per day from clients asking what they need to do.

In general, under the new guidelines, pools and spas that are open to the public will require either a sloped entry or mechanical chair lift. Pools larger than 300 linear feet will require two ADA-accessible means of entry.

While March 15 is the enforcement date, the Department of Justice says the new regulations won’t be enforced until someone files a complaint with them. Even then, according to a representative with the ADA information line, the DOJ may give owners some time to make the upgrades, perhaps three to six months, though the exact length of time has not been determined.

For most existing pools, Whitehurst said, the most cost-effective way to stay in compliance is to install a battery-powered chair lift to lower disabled swimmers into the water.

The chair lifts she sells start at about $3,500. Installation and any structural or electrical renovations needed to accommodate the lift can add several thousand dollars to the price.

“It’s really hard for some of these facilities to come up with this kind of money all of a sudden,” Whitehurst said.

The rush to retrofit nationwide has led to a three-week backorder for some of the lifts. Whitehurst said some businesses are slow to commit to a significant investment. Others may choose to close their pools.

Alka Patel, general manager of the Days Inn at Graceland, said she recently spent several thousand dollars renovating her hotel’s pool to satisfy a different safety regulation and had been advised to wait before investing in the new ADA upgrades.

The guitar-shaped pool at Days Inn at Graceland is a draw for tourists and backdrop for weddings, but its distinctive design wasn’t built for handicapped accessibility. Patel said there is no lifeguard on duty for disabled swimmers, leading to more safety concerns.

“It’s a guitar-shaped show pool,” she said. “What, do they want us to dig up the concrete and revamp the pool?”

Closing the pool might be an option for her as well as owners of other hotels she’d spoken to, Patel said.

Other pools in the Memphis area are forging ahead with renovations.

YMCA of Memphis and the Mid-South has spent $75,000 to bring its 12 indoor and outdoor pools into compliance, said Stacy Coughlin, the group’s vice president of youth development. That cost doesn’t include hot tubs and whirlpools, which also must comply with the regulations.

“All of our aquatic facilities are able to serve physically challenged people at the present time, but to get into compliance with ADA regulations, it will require a pretty heavy investment,” Coughlin said.

Though the 2010 ADA update wasn’t a big factor in the YMCA’s recent decision to close the old Mason YMCA near the University of Memphis in December, Coughlin said the retrofit would have been part of a multimillion-dollar overhaul the old location would have required.

Germantown Athletic Club director Phil Rogers was in discussions with city leaders last week to determine what the club needs to do to comply, though he said he was still confused by some of the regulations.

The facility, which maintains an indoor and an outdoor lap pool and a children’s splash pool, has three chairlifts and has ordered one more, Rogers said.

“Ultimately, I think there’s a lot of confusion out there,” Rogers said.
 
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gbhammer,

I think that you have stated at least one of the major rubs in this

discussion......."Those that have ignored the law for the last 20

years"......It is now time to pay up for all of that ignoring......Some

businesses have been reaping the benefits of having non-compliant

pools & facilities, ...they have been living on borrowed time.



* * *



 
north star said:
= = =gbhammer,

I think that you have stated at least one of the major rubs in this

discussion......."Those that have ignored the law for the last 20

years"......It is now time to pay up for all of that ignoring......Some

businesses have been reaping the benefits of having non-compliant

pools & facilities, ...they have been living on borrowed time.



* * *



If no one has filed a complaint on a facility in 20 years did you ever think that no handicap person wanted to use the pool in 20 years.

Just how many complaint have been filed with the DOJ about pool access.

If I remember one of Marks previous post less than 1.5% of the population is in a wheel chair.

Most federal laws are suppose to have a cost/bennifit analysis be done before they are voted on. Wonder what this one is? Or because it is a "civil right" the cost are not considered.
 
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