-
Welcome to The Building Code Forum
Your premier resource for building code knowledge.
This forum remains free to the public thanks to the generous support of our Sawhorse Members and Corporate Sponsors. Their contributions help keep this community thriving and accessible.
Want enhanced access to expert discussions and exclusive features? Learn more about the benefits here.
Ready to upgrade? Log in and upgrade now.
Pool Closed Until Further Notice
- Thread starter mark handler
- Start date
I suppose it is not too much of a stretch to equate today’s regulatory mandates especially from the current administration, to the Spanish Inquisition. They most definitely have the very same goals:
Various motives have been proposed for the monarchs' (White House / DOJ)decision to fund the Inquisition such as increasing political authority, weakening opposition, suppressing conversos (Republicans / conservatives), profiting from confiscation of the property of convicted heretics (the wealthy), reducing social tensions (creating class warfare)and protecting the kingdom from the danger of a fifth column (Tea Party).
Various motives have been proposed for the monarchs' (White House / DOJ)decision to fund the Inquisition such as increasing political authority, weakening opposition, suppressing conversos (Republicans / conservatives), profiting from confiscation of the property of convicted heretics (the wealthy), reducing social tensions (creating class warfare)and protecting the kingdom from the danger of a fifth column (Tea Party).
Papio Bldg Dept
REGISTERED
okay...and still Monty Python-esque.gbhammer said:
A bit of a stretch, and a bit much on the political bend for this forum (IMO)...especially given that several of the Monarch's, from both non-tea drinking parties, have had a hand in the mandate of this thread in which we are discussing. maybe we could steer the conversation back towards the OP, or create an OT.gbhammer said:
How was the day off?
mark handler
SAWHORSE
Remember, the ADA, was Bush, NOT Obamagbhammer said:
George H W Bush Signed the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) Bill in 1990
jar546
CBO
I'm still watching the My Generation video post by Brudgers. As a bass player, I idolized John Entwistle. Love the ground breaking bass riffs.
mark handler
SAWHORSE
DOJ Extends ADA Compliance Date for Pools and Spas
http://www.law.upenn.edu/blogs/regblog/2012/04/doj-extends-ada-compliance-date-for-pools-and-spas.html
Maxwell Blum | 04/03/12
In a decision applauded yesterday by the U.S. Small Business Administration, the Department of Justice (DOJ) recently pushed back to May 2012 the date by which owners or operators of pools and spas must comply with new disability accesss standards. At the same time, the DOJ also released a notice of proposed rulemaking that would push the compliance deadline back still further to September 2012.
In 2010, the DOJ had acted under the Americans with Disabilities Act to create a set of Standards for Accessible Design for, among other things, existing and future pools and spas used in public accomodations and commercial and government-owned facilities.
Under the 2010 standards, existing pool owners are required to remove architectural access barriers if doing so is “readily achievable,” meaning that the modification “can be carried out without much difficulty or expense.” For example, a hotel might install a pool lift which meets the requirements for such devices as outlined in the 2010 Standards, if doing so is financially feasible.
The American Hotel and Lodging Association (AH & LA) expressed confusion about what commercial entities are required to do to comply with the 2010 standards, given the lack of bright line rules concerning how significant improvements need to be and when a business’s financial resources are deemed ample enough to activate the modification requirement. The group also raised concerns about the safety of some access devices that the standards purportedly would encourage facilities to install.
The DOJ responded to these concerns by noting that the lack of bright line rules was intentional given the varied circumstances businesses find themselves in. The DOJ suggested that businesses without the resources to comply should create implementation plans. It further noted that it knew of no evidence to warrant safety concerns about access tools.
The 2010 standards, which new pools built after March 15th still must meet, mandate that “large” pools (greater than 300 feet) have at least two accessible entry points, such as fixed pool lifts or sloped entries, while “small” pools are required to have at least one.
http://www.law.upenn.edu/blogs/regblog/2012/04/doj-extends-ada-compliance-date-for-pools-and-spas.html
Maxwell Blum | 04/03/12
In a decision applauded yesterday by the U.S. Small Business Administration, the Department of Justice (DOJ) recently pushed back to May 2012 the date by which owners or operators of pools and spas must comply with new disability accesss standards. At the same time, the DOJ also released a notice of proposed rulemaking that would push the compliance deadline back still further to September 2012.
In 2010, the DOJ had acted under the Americans with Disabilities Act to create a set of Standards for Accessible Design for, among other things, existing and future pools and spas used in public accomodations and commercial and government-owned facilities.
Under the 2010 standards, existing pool owners are required to remove architectural access barriers if doing so is “readily achievable,” meaning that the modification “can be carried out without much difficulty or expense.” For example, a hotel might install a pool lift which meets the requirements for such devices as outlined in the 2010 Standards, if doing so is financially feasible.
The American Hotel and Lodging Association (AH & LA) expressed confusion about what commercial entities are required to do to comply with the 2010 standards, given the lack of bright line rules concerning how significant improvements need to be and when a business’s financial resources are deemed ample enough to activate the modification requirement. The group also raised concerns about the safety of some access devices that the standards purportedly would encourage facilities to install.
The DOJ responded to these concerns by noting that the lack of bright line rules was intentional given the varied circumstances businesses find themselves in. The DOJ suggested that businesses without the resources to comply should create implementation plans. It further noted that it knew of no evidence to warrant safety concerns about access tools.
The 2010 standards, which new pools built after March 15th still must meet, mandate that “large” pools (greater than 300 feet) have at least two accessible entry points, such as fixed pool lifts or sloped entries, while “small” pools are required to have at least one.
mark handler
SAWHORSE
Pools may close instead of installing pricey chairlift
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120426/BUSINESS01/304260063/Pools-may-close-instead-installing-pricey-chairlift
Hotels say measure to add lifts for disabled is too costly
3:20 AM, Apr. 26, 2012
Some pools and spas, including the whirlpool at the Courtyard Marriott Hotel downtown, may close rather than comply with a federal rule that all public pools and hot tubs must install an expensive chairlift for the disabled.
Hotel operators are crying foul because they say there are less costly fixes that work just as well as the lift equipment federal officials want installed by May 21. They’re seeking a delay of at least six months.
“It’s going to cost hotel operators nearly $1 billion to comply with these rules, and in many cases, the answer will be to fill in the pools and take out the hot tubs rather than adding the lifts, which can cost $12,000 or more each (to install),” said Greg Adkins, president of the Tennessee Hospitality Association, which represents hotel owners.
The rules are being issued by the U.S. Justice Department under the Americans With Disabilities Act — or ADA — and they will affect more than 300,000 pools and spas around the country.
Advocates for the disabled favor the government’s initiative and say they’re opposed to any steps by hotel operators to delay things. The rules were written in 2010.
“It’s obviously a necessary thing. I’m glad they’re going to start to crack down. I have used them, and as a camp counselor, I’ve helped others with disabilities use them,” said Evan Espey of Nashville, who was born with spina bifida and uses a wheelchair.
“Pool owners have had plenty of time to come into compliance,” said Bob Kibler, executive director of the Technology Access Center in Nashville, which helps disabled people use technology to overcome handicaps.
Still, some hotel and motel owners say the cost of installation is high and they might close pools rather than pay for the chairlifts.
“We will be closing ours,” said Dennis Barber, general manager of the Courtyard Marriott Downtown. “We have only a whirlpool spa, and it doesn’t get a lot of use to start with, so it doesn’t make sense to spend the money on a lift. If it was very popular, we would have to consider that.”
Rules sent out initially by the Justice Department would have allowed hotels and other venues to use less-expensive portable lifts that could have been shared between adjacent spas and pools at a property. Now, though, the Justice Department says only fixed, permanently installed lifts will be allowed.
For many smaller hotels and motels even having a swimming pool was an afterthought, said Nashville hotel consultant Drew Dimond.
“We will see many of those facilities eliminate pools altogether — just fill them in — unless it’s a resort like Opryland, where it’s an integral part of the operation,” Dimond said.
The lifts cost up to $8,000 apiece, and installation can double the price tag, industry officials said.
“It’s wonderful for someone who is incapacitated, but it is an unreasonable request, especially when they won’t let them use portable lifts,” Dimond said. “They will have to jack-hammer the pool deck to install one.”
Larger pools — with more than 300 feet of side walls — will have to have two lifts or a sloped entry that safely can accommodate a wheelchair.
“In some locations, the lifts themselves can create other hazards that are dangerous not only for disabled people, but for children and other guests,” Adkins contends.
Large hotel chains such as Hilton are working to comply with the rules, and places such as the Gaylord Opryland Resort and Convention Center already have them in place.
“New, ADA-compliant chairlifts were installed at all three of our pools and the hot tub at the beginning of April,” said Gaylord Opryland spokeswoman Jenny Barker. “As a property with 2,881 rooms, we find they are used fairly regularly.”
The Hilton Nashville Downtown also has ordered equipment and plans to install it.
Other pool operators, such as the YMCA, say they won’t be able to meet the May 21 deadline because manufacturers have huge backlogs of orders and can’t provide the devices in time.
“We initially ordered the portable lifts for our pools but had to go back and cancel those and order the fixed lifts,” said Jessica Fain, spokeswoman for YMCA of Middle Tennessee, which has pool facilities in 13 counties.
“We expected to be compliant by the deadline, but we’re having the same issue we had with mandated pool drain covers a couple of year ago,” she said. “We have ordered them, but there is a backlog and we’re waiting.”
Government-run pools affected
Metropolitan Nashville already has installed the required lifts at its pools, but not at Wave Country, where they’re not required, said Tommy Lynch, director of the city’s Parks and Recreation Department.
Unlike privately owned pools such as those at hotels and the YMCA, there are no penalties to force government bodies to install the lifts, Lynch said. In the private sector, fines can run into the thousands of dollars for noncompliance.
Tennessee’s state parks are mostly not in compliance yet, and probably won’t be until there is money allocated by the General Assembly to pay for the lifts, said parks spokeswoman Meg Lockhart.
“Historically, coming into compliance with ADA guidelines is considered an ongoing process, and it can be a challenge in terms of funding and planning,” Lockhart said.
Many hotel operators are hoping for the deadline extension and perhaps a new comment period that would allow questions to be raised again about allowing portable lifts as a compromise, said Adkins of the hospitality association.
“We’re asking the Department of Justice to work with us and at least allow portable lifts,” he said.
Contact Tennessean business writer G. Chambers Williams III at 615-259-8076 or cwilliams1@tennessean.com.
http://www.tennessean.com/article/20120426/BUSINESS01/304260063/Pools-may-close-instead-installing-pricey-chairlift
Hotels say measure to add lifts for disabled is too costly
3:20 AM, Apr. 26, 2012
Some pools and spas, including the whirlpool at the Courtyard Marriott Hotel downtown, may close rather than comply with a federal rule that all public pools and hot tubs must install an expensive chairlift for the disabled.
Hotel operators are crying foul because they say there are less costly fixes that work just as well as the lift equipment federal officials want installed by May 21. They’re seeking a delay of at least six months.
“It’s going to cost hotel operators nearly $1 billion to comply with these rules, and in many cases, the answer will be to fill in the pools and take out the hot tubs rather than adding the lifts, which can cost $12,000 or more each (to install),” said Greg Adkins, president of the Tennessee Hospitality Association, which represents hotel owners.
The rules are being issued by the U.S. Justice Department under the Americans With Disabilities Act — or ADA — and they will affect more than 300,000 pools and spas around the country.
Advocates for the disabled favor the government’s initiative and say they’re opposed to any steps by hotel operators to delay things. The rules were written in 2010.
“It’s obviously a necessary thing. I’m glad they’re going to start to crack down. I have used them, and as a camp counselor, I’ve helped others with disabilities use them,” said Evan Espey of Nashville, who was born with spina bifida and uses a wheelchair.
“Pool owners have had plenty of time to come into compliance,” said Bob Kibler, executive director of the Technology Access Center in Nashville, which helps disabled people use technology to overcome handicaps.
Still, some hotel and motel owners say the cost of installation is high and they might close pools rather than pay for the chairlifts.
“We will be closing ours,” said Dennis Barber, general manager of the Courtyard Marriott Downtown. “We have only a whirlpool spa, and it doesn’t get a lot of use to start with, so it doesn’t make sense to spend the money on a lift. If it was very popular, we would have to consider that.”
Rules sent out initially by the Justice Department would have allowed hotels and other venues to use less-expensive portable lifts that could have been shared between adjacent spas and pools at a property. Now, though, the Justice Department says only fixed, permanently installed lifts will be allowed.
For many smaller hotels and motels even having a swimming pool was an afterthought, said Nashville hotel consultant Drew Dimond.
“We will see many of those facilities eliminate pools altogether — just fill them in — unless it’s a resort like Opryland, where it’s an integral part of the operation,” Dimond said.
The lifts cost up to $8,000 apiece, and installation can double the price tag, industry officials said.
“It’s wonderful for someone who is incapacitated, but it is an unreasonable request, especially when they won’t let them use portable lifts,” Dimond said. “They will have to jack-hammer the pool deck to install one.”
Larger pools — with more than 300 feet of side walls — will have to have two lifts or a sloped entry that safely can accommodate a wheelchair.
“In some locations, the lifts themselves can create other hazards that are dangerous not only for disabled people, but for children and other guests,” Adkins contends.
Large hotel chains such as Hilton are working to comply with the rules, and places such as the Gaylord Opryland Resort and Convention Center already have them in place.
“New, ADA-compliant chairlifts were installed at all three of our pools and the hot tub at the beginning of April,” said Gaylord Opryland spokeswoman Jenny Barker. “As a property with 2,881 rooms, we find they are used fairly regularly.”
The Hilton Nashville Downtown also has ordered equipment and plans to install it.
Other pool operators, such as the YMCA, say they won’t be able to meet the May 21 deadline because manufacturers have huge backlogs of orders and can’t provide the devices in time.
“We initially ordered the portable lifts for our pools but had to go back and cancel those and order the fixed lifts,” said Jessica Fain, spokeswoman for YMCA of Middle Tennessee, which has pool facilities in 13 counties.
“We expected to be compliant by the deadline, but we’re having the same issue we had with mandated pool drain covers a couple of year ago,” she said. “We have ordered them, but there is a backlog and we’re waiting.”
Government-run pools affected
Metropolitan Nashville already has installed the required lifts at its pools, but not at Wave Country, where they’re not required, said Tommy Lynch, director of the city’s Parks and Recreation Department.
Unlike privately owned pools such as those at hotels and the YMCA, there are no penalties to force government bodies to install the lifts, Lynch said. In the private sector, fines can run into the thousands of dollars for noncompliance.
Tennessee’s state parks are mostly not in compliance yet, and probably won’t be until there is money allocated by the General Assembly to pay for the lifts, said parks spokeswoman Meg Lockhart.
“Historically, coming into compliance with ADA guidelines is considered an ongoing process, and it can be a challenge in terms of funding and planning,” Lockhart said.
Many hotel operators are hoping for the deadline extension and perhaps a new comment period that would allow questions to be raised again about allowing portable lifts as a compromise, said Adkins of the hospitality association.
“We’re asking the Department of Justice to work with us and at least allow portable lifts,” he said.
Contact Tennessean business writer G. Chambers Williams III at 615-259-8076 or cwilliams1@tennessean.com.
GBrackins
REGISTERED
This is probably a dumb question. I could not find a definition of pool or spa in the 2010 ADA Standards, may be I overlooked it. It states that a pool must provide at least 2 accessible means of entry, if less than 300-feet it must have one, if the one is a pool lift. Wadding pools must have a sloped entry. The lack of definitions makes me wonder, would a cuddles and bubbles (2-person jacuzzi) platform tub be considered a wadding pool or spa?
Msradell
SAWHORSE
Sounds like a typical application of governmental laws, do is I say, not as I do! It's interesting to note that other sections of the ADA are equally enforced and the DOJ has actually filed suits against some cities for noncompliance.mark handler said:
Coug Dad
Platinum Member
Upon further review by the replay official in the booth:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/24/feds-promise-swimming-pool-rules-are-flexible/
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/24/feds-promise-swimming-pool-rules-are-flexible/