• Welcome to The Building Code Forum

    Your premier resource for building code knowledge.

    This forum remains free to the public thanks to the generous support of our Sawhorse Members and Corporate Sponsors. Their contributions help keep this community thriving and accessible.

    Want enhanced access to expert discussions and exclusive features? Learn more about the benefits here.

    Ready to upgrade? Log in and upgrade now.

Poured concrete foundation build 24" too low

what really bugs me today is that ive been telling him that the whole thing is too low since before they placed the utility easement across the front yard. they could have fixed this then but he's too darned stubborn to accept a mistake so he made it worse. Basically the house is 50 feet from the road, the road has protection against building any retaining walls or anything within fifty feet and there's an electrical, internet, water easement about half way between road and house so digging a huge trench isn't an option. I have thought of trying to get the utilities dropped in elevation but that would require some slack on those lines. In passing, i basically told him if he could accomplish dropping the utility lines, we would be square.

Also, you guys are awesome. I appreciate all the advice. Every word is being listened to and processed in the 'ol noodle. It means a lot to have friends. Would anyone feel they have the abilities to look over my legal paperwork as a second pair of eyes? I will find a lawyer in the meantime, but Id actually rather have someone who doesn't have a dog in the fight.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
These comments are based on the situation as you have presented, and as is often the case, there may be more to this that would change my comments...but based on what I see, this is a tragedy.

I don't know about the legal side, though I am surprised that the "built to Ohio code" language is required in order to enforce some minimum standard. All cases are ultimately up to the judgment of a person or people, and I find it hard to believe the contractor wouldn't end up being held responsible to some extent by those people. What does the local government say? Do they sell permits? Do they have a "building official"? I know you said there was no enforcement, but many local governments still have a "building official", even if they have no enforcement. I worked in a place like that, and they "performed" building inspections without an adopted code...until the state got wind of it and forced some changes. Do they license the contractors locally, through the state, or at all? Ohio has a statewide code do they not? Have you contacted the state regarding this? I also worked in a place that collected a small fee from every permit to fund a homeowner recovery fund to help in situations like this.

Does the local government do foundation elevations? Location certificates? Anything?

I just looked at the Ohio revised statutes, and there is language in there that may help, unless the local government is not subject to them by some adoption action or home rule. Still, I would think the attorney general would have an opinion. Keep looking for an attorney, one who specializes in building defects. I know when I was a builder I would have been crucified for these things, I can't believe there is no remedy.

The contractor should be embarrassed. The local AHJ should be embarrassed. The state should be embarrassed. I am embarrassed. Maybe I impart a basic level of building knowledge that most people aren't interested in, but a quick glance should have told you to run. So as awful as it is to say, maybe you should be a little embarrassed too because it sure doesn't look like this passes even a basic smell test. It is a shame you are in this situation, and I applaud you for thinking about the other people this may be happening to.

BTW- PLEASE TELL US THE STRUCTURAL PLANS CAME WITH AN ENGINEER'S STAMP.
 
Sifu, thank you very much for your reply. Allot of leads to follow up on and I will report back my findings.
Yes, I would expect allot of players here to be concerned of their performance and ethics. I, of course accept blame. I am absolutly at fault to have allowed this to continue to completion and I don’t make excuses for my behavior. I am a combat veteran with ptsd which has resulted in becoming very alerted when things get out control and admittedly a severe perfectionist as this sort of behavior is the reason I am alive today. This house purchase was a practical exercise in trust and ability to calm myself in matters where I am not confident. The process of the purchase of this house was very stressful. So, I am happily grateful it turned out the way it did. It could have been allot worse. My family is not homeless, the walls are not collapsing in. I feel like even someone here may provide a clever solution that I could execute with out even bothering with this contractor. So I am content. However, this contractor and realtor making unethical bussiness practices with other people being unaware is something I cannot live with. I need to hold them accountable one way or another so this never happens again. I AM embarrassed to say I got rolled by them. I’ve been in the military for so long that it’s like I don’t have working knowledge in the real world however there was a comment about learning something out of this deal and I am learning allot. Sorry for the sob story. I don’t need sympathy, I need knowledge.
In this neck of the woods, apparently, one can build houses with no credentials at all, no permits at all with no structural engineers plan with stamp or plan or approval from the township/county/city at all.
 
Last edited:
Dropstone said:
Sifu, thank you very much for your reply. Allot of leads to follow up on and I will report back my findings.
Yes, I would expect allot of players here to be concerned of their performance and ethics. I, of course accept blame. I am absolutly at fault to have allowed this to continue to completion and I don’t make excuses for my behavior. I am a combat veteran with ptsd which has resulted in becoming very alerted when things get out control and admittedly a severe perfectionist as this sort of behavior is the reason I am alive today. This house purchase was a practical exercise in trust and ability to calm myself in matters where I am not confident. The process of the purchase of this house was very stressful. So, I am happily grateful it turned out the way it did. It could have been allot worse. My family is not homeless, the walls are not collapsing in. I feel like even someone here may provide a clever solution that I could execute with out even bothering with this contractor. So I am content. However, this contractor and realtor making unethical bussiness practices with other people being unaware is something I cannot live with. I need to hold them accountable one way or another so this never happens again. I AM embarrassed to say I got rolled by them. I’ve been in the military for so long that it’s like I don’t have working knowledge in the real world however there was a comment about learning something out of this deal and I am learning allot. Sorry for the sob story. I don’t need sympathy, I need knowledge.
In this neck of the woods, apparently, one can build houses with no credentials at all, no permits at all with no structural engineers plan with stamp or plan or approval from the township/county/city at all.
Click to expand...
First, thanks for your service, without it we might all be living in concrete boxes with bright spotlights all around. (But stay tuned, the day ain't over yet)

Keep asking the questions and looking for answers. This should not be happening to anyone. I do not mean to point the finger at you as much as the post may have seemed. We all rely on trust for things about which we may not be experts. I get my brakes done at a mechanic because I am not an expert, and I expect them to be done right, WITHOUT A CONTRACT THAT SAYS THEY WILL BE DONE RIGHT, it is implied. I have an expectation for performance, and if they don't carry out their job I have the right to try and force them to. You should too. Good luck and keep us posted.
 
Also, just peeked at Marietta's website. They have a building official, they have an adopted code. Please spend some time on it and dig. Unless I am missing something in my quick search there should have been a permit. It is a place to start.
 
Another person involved you say, a realtor? Required to be licensed in your state? If so they have a duty and ethics they are obligated to. Contact state realtors board and file a complaint? Maybe contact Veterans Affairs for help? Maybe ARTRP too?
 
Dropstone said:
What constitutes a construction defect? I thought there was no more superior authority then the state and local building codes and a structural engineer? If both of those authorities say theres an issue, then doesn't that make it a construction defect?
Click to expand...
Semantics I know, but ultimately, the building official for the area would determine what a building code violation is. A construction defect is a little more broad and usually related to failure to observe the requirements of the plans or specification (specifications usually say built to code, so a code defect can be a construction defect as well).

I actually had a code interpretation discussion with a home inspector. He was trying to back up his call that a fire separation was required where it was not. The sentence said "the fire separation referred to in sentence 2 need not apply" then gave the circumstances which were met in this case. He argued that "need not apply" means it does apply. Stupidest thing I've ever heard come out of someone's mouth. At the end of our discussion, it was fairly obvious to him that he was not gaining any ground, so he asks, "Well, you say it's your way and I say it's my way. So who decides", to which I happily responded, "I'm the authority having jurisdiction, so I decide". He didn't feel that this was very fair.
 
Well this is what Ive found.... His realtor serves on the board of realtors which would be respossible for holding the mediations for disrcrepansies for my contract. Contractor is currently is on the townships water utility board and im just assuming more boards. The lawfirm who wrote the nastiest response to my notice to contractor and is now the contractors representation, was the title company who executed our transaction. Im thinking there are entrenched powers, conflicts of interests and ethics issues all around here.
 
######### the city has adopted code. Unfortunately i am outside the city by about 2 miles. Which leaves my township of ####### for a building department which Im thinking is a closet converted office with a 30 year cup of coffee sitting next to a rotary phone. Maybe some sort of official, some where could say that what I have in front of me is a construction defect. My structural engineer has given some much needed comic relief....

She says something like this. The failure to construct a home in conformance with the minimum standards set forth by the State of Ohio is most definitely a defect of the home and is also a damage and future liability to you as the homeowner. Unfortunately, I do not believe having this statement in a formal letter from me will change any future correspondence or negotiations regarding these gross and unprofessional defects constructed by ###########. Let me know if you decide to proceed with any litigation and I will be happy to assist with my professional opinions and testimony as needed.

She goes on to say that this its the dumbest defect she's seen and she's seen some real doozies. She says the rest of the home is beautiful and appears to have real craftsmanship but this issue will plague me as a homeowner and when I go to sell unless its property fixed. She says regardless of litigation the next step is to get some professional fixes nailed down in writing in more detail and get actual costs from reputable and educated contractors.

Sorry, I had to change the words so that nothing is quoted should this ever show up in court.

Monday I will check into the realtors, the lawyers and the builders individual boards and file a complaint. Then Ill check into the building office in my town and see what they have to offer. I still have to serve him one more notice to show all the other things gone wrong. which would be largely the bathroom whose rubber shower pan was improperly installed and leaks thorough the floor and the electrical which has no arc fault, has multiple machines on one branch circuit, no dedicated laundry, no dedicated kitchen, outdoor not on GCFI. Builder wires it himself if you couldn't tell. He also, switches grades of flooring through out the house to a grade much lower then contracted. That ones sort of stings. The biggest problem is that the flooring is rated for wet areas and installing the flooring through out the house with the higher grade would have been fine for that purpose but this lower end flooring is swelling up and being damaged by the wet areas it wasn't intended for. I dont think its a code, its just the directions in the box.
 
Im thinking that the best solution here is to have the utilities easement buried deeper so I can rent a bull dozer and pull like 4 feet of dirt from the front yard. Every other way to handle this thing is like building and burring up on the house to get the drainage. That all sounds fine but ultimately im burring the house and Id rather be making it stand out more so taking the yard way down seems preferable. Will only cost me some driveway I believe. I do need to get those utilities moved deeper though. Im thinking theres enough slack between the points if im able to burry the neighbors deeper as well. Fortuanelty his house isn't built yet so theres still time. Any tips on how about to do that? AEP electric, Suddenlink, Water. Water shouldn't be a problem as my builder is on the board and when I asked him he didnt think it was a thing. Its funny how people can be so terrible but then when in person, talk like normal. I have no problem talking with him but he seems nervous. I figure meanwhile we are doing court stuff I might as well be moving forward with the repair simultaneously.
 
Burying the water, electric, phone & cable deeper shouldn't be a problem, although there might not be enough slack to go down 4 ft. then back up again. The sewer needs to slope down to the manhole (or septic tank). You might have to pump the sewage, if your health dept. will allow that.
 
Ok now I really need to tap into the experience levels in this forum. We have moved to settlement stage. I've been as real and accurate as possible to quantify this thing. I should say that he doesn't want to come back and help fix and this is not surprising as he probably hates me. He wants to pay out. So, I came up with a nice compromise in which he would not have to open his wallet. I'm trying to save him some anguish. The idea is he would give me a scrubby little drainage ditch half acre behind my lot which means nothing to his farm, but it gives me another build site. That way, the values of the properties will go up as my property becomes more valuable and he gets to sell houses for that much more after every build because of it. All was well, but then he wants to be fully released from all liability having to do as a residential contractor. Meaning those implied warranties, the foundation warranty and all the others I don't know about. Given that his ding dong subcontractor already built the thing two feet too low and made the walk out basement, a full 12 inches too shallow, I'm sort of expecting more excitement in the future. My garage at basement level already has full span cracks in the pad and a crack in the poured wall. I'm wondering if the footers are sinking. Sometimes I wonder, if he plumbed the roof downspouts in to the footer drain which at this point, wouldn't surprise me as he plumbed a surface water drain in the yard to a footer drain already. I should have a plumber send a camera in and check that out. Anyways, my question is......

What value do you put at a full release of liability? I've got thoughts, but I need the thoughts of some experienced people. The square footage is around 5,000 with walk out basement and first floor. Poured concrete foundation. 4 car garage attached and stacked 2 on 2. 6 bed, 3 bath. I think if this thing sank, it would cost 100k in a ramjack.
 
Based on what I know about the build I would be hesitant to release the contractor from any enforceable expressed or implied warranty.. Not sure I understand your compromise, but I would say your house has some very worrisome defects and disclosing those defects will damage the value to the extent that an additional build site wouldn't offset your losses (plus, imagine the relationship you will have with the future owner and neighbor when he has to live with the mistakes). You will be taking ownership of every mistake the contractor made, passing it on to some future buyer, and contributing to the same mistakes he will undoubtedly make for others in the future. I think your generous offer to help him avoid proper restitution is a mistake, and you are correct to worry about future, undisclosed and unknown defects as well. Maybe you love the house, location etc., and are looking at it through rose colored glasses. If so, you have a decision to make about how bad you want to keep it, hopefully that decision is a little more informed now. Personally, and again this is only based on what I know from you, I would be seeking to have the contractor buy it back from you and I would move on.

Maybe I missed something, but I assume you found a process by which the contractor was forced into accepting some sort of responsibility. What process was that? Was there a building department? Permits, inspections? Also, I don't think I ever got a response about whether you had sealed engineered drawings for the structure.
 
There were no engineered plans for this house. He just sort of wings it and it shows. Unfortuanly he isn't even required to have any plans since there is no enforcement here, however now he is open to liability should he choose not to. I've basically followed the guidelines in ORC 1312 as self represented, but I feel like I've done it in the most meticulous and well documented way I can, with as much evidence as I can. In the beginning, when they responded to my 'Notice to Contractor' which was a heavily reinforced 150 pages or so, document, he hired a lawyer to write up a scare letter. Accusing me of trespassing. So, in response I looked up the laws pertaining to criminal trespass and proved to them that its not criminal trespass if a person has privilege to property. Since we are engaged in a legal and public business during business hours, this is not criminal trespass and furthermore, I held his lawyer accountable for unsubstantiated claims leading to the delay of intervention on a time sensitive construction matter in which time with out repairs could lead to further damages. That is the last I heard of trespass. That's one of a hundred ways these guys are dodging any accountability. A part of me sort of wants this to move into arbitration just to have a judge hold these guys accountable. So, why are they complying? I think they think I have a justifiable case against them or not. Who knows. Basically they've chosen to settle. There offers have been low ball. Their numbers are unbacked and exaggerated. I think my next letter will be that I am no longer believing that both sides have the potential to come to a settlement as their offers are so off. Then again, I really need to be able to quantify how much a full release is worth. Since that is what they are wanting. My offers to settle have been only the matters at hand, thus far which is just surface things like the drainage, the shower, the god awful electric ( $3,800.00 in repairs ). My offers do not include full release and only include the matters at hand. I'd offered for him to exchange property instead of money. I thought this would help matters because I don't know his finances and I do know he has property which is connected to mine and inconsequential to his, so I thought we could come to settle sooner and I would fix the matters at hand with the house, myself. I don't believe he will be making the same mistakes again or doing business in the same way. Especially since I would just forward all of my work to the next person, should this every happen again. I cannot control him into proper business practices. What is in my control is to make sure this current case has been executed to its fullest extent and any consequence for bad business that can be imposed, is imposed.
 
Not having an engineered plan for some of the things I see are concerning. Aside from the prescriptive violations I see in the photos I would be curious how the engineering for things like what appears to be a wood framed garage floor was arrived at. I have been at this stuff for a while, and I have never seen anything like that, never mind the fact that it is wood, absorbs water, burns, swells, rots and deflects, though I guess it will make a conversion to living space a little easier. Which is about the only viable option for that space since it is a blatant and direct violation of code. I would consider finding a code consultant to provide a list of deficiencies, then find an engineer to evaluate the structure, then a contractor to provide a number to bring the code and engineering deficiencies up to snuff. That would be the start, add in the cost of doing all that, the time and resources you spent, all the legal costs, and potential damage to the ability to sell in the future.
 
well negotiations are going terrible. He keeps asking for big and I keep being generous, yet still we can't find common ground. When I say that someone is being outrageous and ridiculous, I surely need to check myself for the same accusation but here, ..it's real hard to see where he's coming from. Oh well. Here's the excitement for the week. I believe he's built this house in violation of a 50' setback from the road which is his own covenant, but also his plans for this development have been approved through many channels as well. Perhaps someone could give me some insight. I'm going post some pictures and quote a covenant shortly.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top