Public Toilets required?

[fatboy]

I would agree with Jim's analysis.....

 

[JBI]

The sausage maker is an F-1, possibly an S-2. The problems/issues arise with occupancies that are, generally speaking, 'open to the public'. Most factories and warehouses are not, so the rules are different for them. Most businesses are 'open to the public' at least to a limited extent, so the facilities must be made available to those with a reason to be there. (and NO, I don't consider 'I gotta GO' to be a reason to be there...)

 

[Dr. J]

Sorry guys. My prescription refill came in and I feel better now.

I suppose I was reading too much into Mark's responses (and remembering the "let anyone in" posters on the I Gotta Pee thread). I do see that most people on this thread are using the word "Public" as "non-employee", rather than "unwashed masses".

And yes, I will admit to a bit of conspiratorial thinking that the the gubmint is trying to pry the bathroom key out of my cold dead hand (when bathroom keys are outlawed ...).

So, maybe a constructive response to the OP. Yes a pub... er... "customers, patrons, visitors, and employee" toilet is required (my eye was twitching as I started to type "public"). And the non-employees need non-kitchen access. Howabout a room with both an interior door for the employee and an exterior door for the pub... visitors? Also, remember that even the employee toilet can't open into the kitchen.

 

[fatboy]

Nice response Doc.......got a couple chuckles out of me. :cowboy

 

[north star]

* * * *

Dr. J.,

Ya gotta watch that "twitching eye" thingy.



* * * *

 

[mark handler]

I am going to throw a curve in this one. Popular drive up fast food joint (starts with SO_ _ C) now has outside seating for eating not in your vechile. How can they not provide public restrooms?

INTERNATIONAL BUILDING CODE® COMMENTARY

Public facilities are required in all spaces to be used by the public, including restaurants, nightclubs, places of public assembly and business occupancies open to the public.

your outdoor dining area is a space

 

[lunatick]

I am going to throw a curvin this one. Popular drive up fast food joint (starts with SO_ _ C) now has outside seating for eating not in your vechile. How can they not provide public restrooms?

My memory, of thier prototype from 4 years ago is they do.

Is used by both.

Entry from exterior into a hallway that has a control entry point to the kitchen.

Issue here though is you have a standalone restaurant where you have patrons that are intending to be there 15-30 minutes eating and drinking ready to eat foods. Where places of that type sometimes have hot rod shows. Where you could possibly hangout for hours if you desired.

versus,

what the OP described as a Take and Bake place. Though I have been there for 15 minutes waiting on my za. But you are there for as short a time as it takes to get it and get going to bake someplace else.

Like wise I would not expect such facilitation at a leather repair shop.

Dry Cleaners, etc.

IMO, I do not expect there to be a restroom for the customer at this type of biz.

Whereas the other I would.

IMO, if the code required it, I think the code is wrong. How would I exempt it? This I would need to think about to achieve the intent.

 

[mtlogcabin]

How would I exempt it?

Once the business provides a place to eat, a parking space and a server to bring the food to your car or outdoor seating then in my opinion there is no way around the IBC requirement to provide restrooms for the use of the businesses customers.

Even footnote d requires you to include outdoor seating

 

[lunatick]

Mech

what do you mean by pickup/to go?

"The use group is now being changed to a B for a "Pick-up / To-go" only food establishment. No tables are provided for eating."

Is it served ready to eat or not?

 

[Alias]

delete delete

 

[MikeC]

I recently had this same argument with our Health Officer. We have a restaurant which was formerly a cellular phone store. The Health Officer recited the PA Food Code (the OP is from PA), which is also very grey. It requires a sink be made available for the convenience of the customer and then requires a toilet in another section, but nowhere in the requirement for that toilet does it say anything about the convenience of the customer. Considering that the customers needs are addressed with the sink, but not with the toilet, it leads me to believe that a customer use toilet is not required. The Food Code then continues on to state that toilet(s) must be available per the PA UCC requirements, which adopts the standards of the 2009 IBC for this case. It was an interesting discussion. When it was over, the customers now have access to a unisex water closet / lavatory at the rear of the building after walking through a cooking area. It will never be perfect. Try to throw some common sense into the code when you can.

 

[Mech]

The tenant is a pizza business with no seating or tables. There is a kitchen, a restroom, and a small waiting area to pick up food orders.

I think we ended up narrowing the kitchen and installing a corridor so customers could travel to the restroom at the rear of the space without walking through the kitchen. (And the restroom did not open into the kitchen.)

 

[RonU]

California has a Uniform Retail Food Facilities Law. A similar law may apply to this case. Be sure to check for that.

 

[mark handler]

California has a Uniform Retail Food Facilities Law. A similar law may apply to this case. Be sure to check for that.

Welcome Ron

The CALIFORNIA RETAIL FOOD CODE, does not require restrooms, when provided it does have "some" requirements

 

[RonU]

Welcome RonThe CALIFORNIA RETAIL FOOD CODE, does not require restrooms, when provided it does have "some" requirements

Thanks Mark....I've enjoyed learning from you.

Regarding the CRFC ....restaurants >20k sq.ft. & constructed between July 1, 84 & Jan 1, 04 - required to have 1 min. restroom; any new bldg constr. after Jan 1, 04 that has a restaurant with on-site food consumption or is >20k sq.ft. is reqd. to have restrooms for customers. Whether or not, if restrooms are provided for the public, they should met accessibility standards....a point that has pretty clearly been made.

Thanks again

 

[mark handler]

Thanks Mark....I've enjoyed learning from you.Regarding the CRFC ....restaurants >20k sq.ft. & constructed between July 1, 84 & Jan 1, 04 - required to have 1 min. restroom; any new bldg constr. after Jan 1, 04 that has a restaurant with on-site food consumption or is >20k sq.ft. is reqd. to have restrooms for customers. Whether or not, if restrooms are provided for the public, they should met accessibility standards....a point that has pretty clearly been made.

Thanks again

You are using an out of date CALIFORNIA RETAIL FOOD CODE

http://www.cdph.ca.gov/services/Documents/fdbRFC.pdf

 

[RonU]

Thanks for the link

 

[mark handler]

Thanks for the link

No problem

Once again welcome.... keep posting

 

[MikeC]

I am assuming the original question was in regard to a restaurant in PA.

Here is the section of the PA Food Code that applies:

§ 46.823. Numbers and capacities of plumbing facilities. (a) Handwashing facilities for employees and consumers.

(1) Except as specified in paragraphs (2) and (3), at least one handwashing sink—and a number of handwashing sinks necessary for their convenient use by employees in areas specified in § 46.824(a) (relating to location and placement of plumbing facilities)—shall be provided.

(2) If approved by the Department and capable of removing the types of soils encountered in the food operations involved, automatic handwashing facilities may be substituted for handwashing sinks in a food facility that has at least one handwashing sink.

(3) If approved by the Department, when food exposure is limited to prepackaged foods and handwashing sinks are not conveniently available, such as in some temporary food facilities or at some vending machine locations, employees may use chemically treated towelettes for handwashing.

(4) At least one handwashing sink and a number of handwashing sinks necessary for the convenient use by consumers shall be provided in food facilities which allow consumption of food on the food facility premises. Handwash sinks for consumers shall be located in easily accessible areas and as required in § 46.824(a)(2), but may not require access through food preparation, food dispensing, food, equipment and utensil storage areas, or warewashing areas.

(b) Toilets and urinals. At least one toilet and not fewer than the toilets (and urinals, if used) required by the Department of Labor and Industry shall be provided.

© Utility sink. At least one utility sink or one curbed cleaning facility equipped with a floor drain shall be provided and conveniently located for the cleaning of mops or similar wet floor cleaning tools and for the disposal of mop water and similar liquid waste.

(d) Backflow prevention device: when required. A plumbing system shall be installed to preclude backflow of a solid, liquid or gas contaminant into the water supply system at each point of use at the food facility, including on a hose bib if a hose is attached, or on a hose bib if a hose is not attached but can be attached, by an approved backflow prevention device as specified in § 46.822(d) (relating to design, construction and installation of plumbing systems).

(e) Backflow prevention device on carbonators. If not provided with an air gap as specified in § 46.822©, a double check valve with an intermediate vent preceded by a screen of not less than 100 mesh to 25.4mm (100 mesh to 1 inch) shall be installed upstream from a carbonating device and downstream from any copper in the water supply line. A single or double check valve attached to the carbonator need not be of the vented type if an air gap or vented backflow prevention device has been otherwise provided.

Cross References

This section cited in 7 Pa. Code § 46.941 (relating to handwashing facilities: numbers and capacities); 7 Pa. Code § 46.942 (relating to toilets and urinals: numbers and capacities); and 7 Pa. Code § 46.946 (relating to utility sinks).

Pennsylvania Food Code

As I stated in my previous post. The code specifically states who the handwashing facilities are intended to be used by. The toilet and urinal section doesn't, but you can also reasonably assume that the Department of Labor and Industry would require the number require by the PA UCC, which references the IBC.

 

[mark handler]

but you can also reasonably assume

If you read the posts you can see that code professionals do not "REASONABLY ASSUME" anything.

No grey, black or white.

Stated, no thinking

 

[Architect1281]

If you say public toilets are not available yes they are required..

[P] 2902.3 Required public toilet facilities. Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization.......(exception covered mall at tenant space)

If you tell me NO we dont provide them .. I rerach for fly and ask " Got a Mop"?? Facilites Provided quickly...

 

[mark handler]

If you say public toilets are not available yes they are required.. [P] 2902.3 Required public toilet facilities. Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization.......(exception covered mall at tenant space)

If you tell me NO we dont provide them .. I rerach for fly and ask " Got a Mop"?? Facilites Provided quickly...

Just a note, some states do not adopt the chapter29 of the IBC and rely on the plumbing code. And some states do not adopt the IPC but instead use the UPC....

Just to throw in a stone.....

 

[kilitact]

If you say public toilets are not available yes they are required.. [P] 2902.3 Required public toilet facilities. Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization.......(exception covered mall at tenant space)

If you tell me NO we dont provide them .. I rerach for fly and ask " Got a Mop"?? Facilites Provided quickly...

And some reach for the phone. In most states once you open that fly, the people with the blue or/and white coats come for you.

 

[rgrace]

You could always look at the 2015 IPC and get some guidance from it .....

The following was "Approved as Submitted" at the Final Actions Hearings (specifically new exception 2):

403.3 (IBC [P] 2902.3) Required public toilet facilities. Customers, patrons and visitors shall be provided with public toilet facilities in structures and tenant spaces intended for public utilization. The number of plumbing fixtures located within the required toilet facilities shall be provided in accordance with Section 403 for all users. Employees shall be provided with toilet facilities in all occupancies. Employee toilet facilities shall be either separate or combined employee and public toilet facilities.

Exceptions: Public toilet facilities shall not be required in:

1. Open or enclosed parking garages. Toilet facilities shall not be required in parking garages where there are no parking attendants.

2. Structures and tenant spaces intended for quick transactions, including take out, pick up and drop off, having a public access area less than or equal to 300 square feet.