RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

[jar546]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

Rick18071

You know that you will be getting audited by PA L&I and the results of the audit can affect your employment and certification status.

I would apply the IBC and ANSI 117.1 where is tells you to and let the church file an appeal with the PA Accessibility Advisory Board.

If they church feels they have to use the first ammendment, let them.

Just do your job and let the chips fall where they may. You will get into more trouble with your career if you don't apply the codes. IBC and ANSI don't exclude churches from accessibility.

The DOJ is reactive and not proactive. Not your problem.

 

[brudgers]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

Rick18071You know that you will be getting audited by PA L&I and the results of the audit can affect your employment and certification status.

I would apply the IBC and ANSI 117.1 where is tells you to and let the church file an appeal with the PA Accessibility Advisory Board.

If they church feels they have to use the first ammendment, let them.

Just do your job and let the chips fall where they may. You will get into more trouble with your career if you don't apply the codes. IBC and ANSI don't exclude churches from accessibility.

The DOJ is reactive and not proactive. Not your problem.

If you follow the IBC, churches are not required to provide vertical accessibility to much of anything outside the seating area...and only limited vertical accessibility within it as specified in 1108.

BTW, first amendment suits don't involve the DOJ...unless the Federal government is being sued.

 

[JBI]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

Amendment I Congess shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedon of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for redress of grievances.

Possibly the most misunderstood provision of our Constitution.

All the first part actually says is that there shall never be a National Religion (think Church of England).

The second part merely provides that ALL systems of religious belief may be freely practiced within the United States.

That is all.

Before you start quoting case law, supreme court decisions and OPINIONS, please understand that all I'm doing is reading the words that are written. I am not reading into them to justify anything. All case law, all supreme court decisions and all OPINIONS that give any additional weight, leverage or meaning to those words are hogwash, plain and simple.

Personally I wouldn't soil a hog with any of it.

There is no Constitutional prohibition on dispalying the Ten Commandments on or in a Govt. Building.

There is no immunity from lawfully adopted rules and/or regulations.

There is simply no national religion and freedom to follow the teachings of your choice.

 

[Gene Boecker]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

1104.4 Duh.

1104.4 requires access to multiple level areas including mezzanines. 1104.4 says nothing about worship. Double Duh :lol:

Next time you read code section 1104.4, try to keep your head out at least until you come to either 1104.5 or 1105...which ever comes first.

See exception 2 for the occupancy A specifics.

See exception 1 for a general exemption if less than 3000 square feet.

I can hear it now..."but you didn't say to read the whole thing."

First, if you meant another section, why not cite that one?

Second, exception #2 to 1104.5 says nothing about assembly occupancies; exception #2 to section 1105.1 says nothing about assembly occupancies nor does exception #2 to Section 1105.1.6. And, exception #2 to section 1104.4 says nothing about assembly occupancies except by reference to 1108 which does not discuss the specific situation (unless you are trying to use the 1108.2.8 performance area provisions - if so, a real stretch citing 1104.4).

What book are you reading???

Never mind, I really don't want to know.

On a positive note: The 3000 sf exception in 1104.4, exception #1 was not part of the initial discussion - albeit a valid argument. Altar/stage/platform areas less than 3000 sf would not need access under the IBC - the same threshold as the ADAAG and the ADA/ABA.

 

[Big Mac]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

I would respectfully suggest that the 3,000 square foot rule has no place in this discussion. The 3,000 square foot rule applies to stories or mezzanines above and below accessible levels. It would be quite a stretch to consider a platform, or even a formal stage, equal to a mezzanine.

My thought is that brudgers is trying too hard to find leway for churches, and believe me I am not anti-church. Far from it. I am much more comfortable with the positions stated by Gene. As someone else implied, if the church feels strongly about it let them appeal and let someone else take the heat.

Our job is to enforce the code as written. Our code does not include ADA or ADAAG

 

[JBI]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

Exactly!

 

[brudgers]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

I would respectfully suggest that the 3,000 square foot rule has no place in this discussion. The 3,000 square foot rule applies to stories or mezzanines above and below accessible levels. It would be quite a stretch to consider a platform, or even a formal stage, equal to a mezzanine.My thought is that brudgers is trying too hard to find leway for churches, and believe me I am not anti-church. Far from it. I am much more comfortable with the positions stated by Gene. As someone else implied, if the church feels strongly about it let them appeal and let someone else take the heat.

Our job is to enforce the code as written. Our code does not include ADA or ADAAG

I take it you didn't actually read the definition of "mezzanine" in the building code before responding.

 

[Gene Boecker]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

oops!

 

[Plans Approver]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

Just for clarification or further obfuscation:

1. The IBC does not require stories or mezzanines of 3000 sf or less above or below an accessible level to be accessible (1104.4). A platform is neither a story or mezzanine.

2. The exception in ADAAG does not require elevators to be installed to a story or stories above or below less than 3000 sf in buildings 3 stories or less (ADAAG 4.1.3(5)). It excepts elevators, but, does not except accessibility to those stories as stated further in ADAAG 4.1.3(5) "The elevator exemption set forth in this paragraph does not obviate or limit in any way the obligation to comply with the other accessibility requirements established in section 4.1.3. For example, floors above or below the accessible ground floor must meet the requirements of this section except for elevator service.".

[edit:] I see there were a half dozen posts since I started writing this. :twisted:

 

[brudgers]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

I would respectfully suggest that the 3,000 square foot rule has no place in this discussion. The 3,000 square foot rule applies to stories or mezzanines above and below accessible levels. It would be quite a stretch to consider a platform, or even a formal stage, equal to a mezzanine.My thought is that brudgers is trying too hard to find leway for churches, and believe me I am not anti-church. Far from it. I am much more comfortable with the positions stated by Gene. As someone else implied, if the church feels strongly about it let them appeal and let someone else take the heat.

Our job is to enforce the code as written. Our code does not include ADA or ADAAG

I take it you didn't actually read the definition of "mezzanine" in the building code before responding.

Why you pikkin' on me???

I didn't write the last two comments?????? [/quote:tyuybn89]

You apparently didn't read my comment either. Start with "Big Mac wrote:"

 

[brudgers]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

Just for clarification or further obfuscation: 1. The IBC does not require stories or mezzanines of 3000 sf or less above or below an accessible level to be accessible (1104.4). A platform is neither a story or mezzanine.

2. The exception in ADAAG does not require elevators to be installed to a story or stories above or below less than 3000 sf in buildings 3 stories or less (ADAAG 4.1.3(5)). It excepts elevators, but, does not except accessibility to those stories as stated further in ADAAG 4.1.3(5) "The elevator exemption set forth in this paragraph does not obviate or limit in any way the obligation to comply with the other accessibility requirements established in section 4.1.3. For example, floors above or below the accessible ground floor must meet the requirements of this section except for elevator service.".

[edit:] I see there were a half dozen posts since I started writing this. :twisted:

Read the definition of "mezzanine."

Tell me how a platform does not fall within it?

 

[Plans Approver]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

Read the definition of "mezzanine."

Tell me how a platform does not fall within it?

I read the definition of mezzanine. I also read 505 and placed 505.1 below.

505.1 General. A mezzanine or mezzanines in compliance with Section 505 shall be considered a portion of the story below. Such mezzanines shall not contribute to either the building area or number of stories as regulated by Section 503.1. The area of the mezzanine shall be included in determining the fire area defined in Section 702. The clear height above and below the mezzanine floor construction shall not be less than 7 feet.

Are you saying that a raised area (platform) of 1 or more risers does not contribute to the building area because it is a mezzanine? I can see where a platform could have 7 feet of clear height below, though.

Did you read the definition of platform?

 

[Big Mac]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

I would agree that a platform "could" have 7' below, but I have never seen one.

 

[Coug Dad]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

A platform is not a mezzanine. A mezzanine, as defined in Section 502.1 is an intermediate level between the floor and the ceiling. There is no usable space underneath a platform. The 3,000 sf exception is intended for a group of cubicles or private offices. A small cubible farm does not require an accessible route through the farm.

 

[Plans Approver]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

I don't want to go further off topic (does anybody remember it's about a ramp that's not a ramp?), but I can't stop myself. Level is an undefined word used by the Ick that is used far to frequently for far to diverse situations such as level as in floor or horizontal surface (like a mezzanine ), 12th grade level, grade plane level, level of protection, level of exit discharge ...ad nauseum.

Steering back on topic (I think) level is not mentioned in the platform section. Unfortunately, the space under platforms may be used, see 410.4.

 

[brudgers]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

What I said originally is that a platform used for worship isn't required to be accessible under IBC.

If you are going to read 1104.1 Exception 1 as only applying to stories and mezzanines and not covering a platform, then it is inconsistent to read 1108.2.7 as applying to worship areas as well as those for "performance."

IMO it is ridiculous to exempt entire stories from accessibility but not a pulpit, altar, or choir risers.

 

[Plans Approver]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

I look at these raised areas as performance areas. Performance of holy services, preaching, sacrements, baptisms, weddings, healings, depiction of scriptual writings and so on. I don't see anywhere in the IBC that provides an exception. I am not about to read between the lines. Not all builings have additional floors or mezzanines so exemption of those areas does include all buildings, only those with those features. If the church performs on a mezzanine fine, they can even have a platform on the mezzanine.

BTW - Roll Tide! My Grandson at 2 months

 

[Big Mac]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

Plans Approver, the kid's cute but what with that shirt?

Perhaps what we really need to do is go back to the reason for the accessiiblity code in the first place. The intent is to give equal access to persons of diability as is afforded to able bodied persons. Are you really comfortable taking the stand and defending your position to not allow persons of disability onto a platform. I'm not. As has been pointed out performing is not limited to performing for profit, it includes all types of performances whether religeous, school plays, visiting choirs, invited guest speakers, etc.

 

[Plans Approver]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

Plans Approver, the kid's cute but what with that shirt?Perhaps what we really need to do is go back to the reason for the accessiiblity code in the first place. The intent is to give equal access to persons of diability as is afforded to able bodied persons. Are you really comfortable taking the stand and defending your position to not allow persons of disability onto a platform. I'm not. As has been pointed out performing is not limited to performing for profit, it includes all types of performances whether religeous, school plays, visiting choirs, invited guest speakers, etc.

Amen. My position has always been that accessibility is required to platforms. Maybe there have been so many posts that that wasn't clear.

As for the shirt, my daughter's husband was a recruit until he blew his knees out. Next generation?

 

[Gene Boecker]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

Amen, Dan.

(except for the shirt thing. . . )

 

[brudgers]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

Plans Approver, the kid's cute but what with that shirt?Perhaps what we really need to do is go back to the reason for the accessiiblity code in the first place. The intent is to give equal access to persons of diability as is afforded to able bodied persons. Are you really comfortable taking the stand and defending your position to not allow persons of disability onto a platform. I'm not. As has been pointed out performing is not limited to performing for profit, it includes all types of performances whether religeous, school plays, visiting choirs, invited guest speakers, etc.

Accessibility as civil rights law doesn't extend to places of worship.

When it comes to worship, the right to accessibility comes into conflict with the right to worship as one chooses.

One is is a Federal, state or local statute, the other is part of the constitution.

"Performance area" is directly from ADAAG. By definition anything in ADA does not apply to places of worship.

If the IBC was intended to apply to areas used for worship, it would so state...of course it doesn't since doing so would conflict with the scheme for turning A117.1 and the IBC into ADA law.

 

[Gene Boecker]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

"Performance area" is directly from ADAAG. By definition anything in ADA does not apply to places of worship.

If the IBC was intended to apply to areas used for worship, it would so state...of course it doesn't since doing so would conflict with the scheme for turning A117.1 and the IBC into ADA law.

Almost. The IBC indicates all buildings are subject to Chapter 11 and then lists the areas where non-applicability exists. As you note, it is not federal law. It is stand alone. The IBC does not have first amendment issues with its application or subjective feelings about fraternal organizations like the members of congress espouse.

The IBC is not a federal law wannabe so get off that shtick. It's a building code not civil rights legislation.

 

[Big Mac]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

We do not enforce civil rights in this office

We do not enforce federeal law in this office

We do not enforce ada in this office

We do not enforce ADAAG in this office

We do enforce the 2006 IBC and ANSI/ICC A117.1 in this office

 

[brudgers]

Re: RAMP THAT'S NOT A RAMP

We do not enforce civil rights in this officeWe do not enforce federeal law in this office

We do not enforce ada in this office

We do not enforce ADAAG in this office

We do enforce the 2006 IBC and ANSI/ICC A117.1 in this office

I'm sure you do.

The question is, "Do you do it correctly?"