FM William Burns
Moderator
One example of many; why residential fire sprinklers can save lives:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOcLHCqs ... r_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOcLHCqs ... r_embedded
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REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
- Thread starter FM William Burns
- Start date
FM William Burns
Moderator
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
Another example.......since January 1, 2010
121 civilians have lost their lives due to fire in residential structures:
http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/fireservice/sub ... index.shtm
Another example.......since January 1, 2010
121 civilians have lost their lives due to fire in residential structures:
http://www.usfa.dhs.gov/fireservice/sub ... index.shtm
jar546
Forum Coordinator
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
Many elderly and young, both who are not as likely to move as fast and deliberate as one has to in order to exit a structure in a fire.
Many elderly and young, both who are not as likely to move as fast and deliberate as one has to in order to exit a structure in a fire.
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
FM,
If every new home built in America in the last 10 years, had RFS's installed; most, if not all of those people would still have died in those fires.
I think you just miss the the fire guys that haven't been posting on our new board; and, figured bringing back the old RFS argument might get them back.
Uncle Bob
FM,
If every new home built in America in the last 10 years, had RFS's installed; most, if not all of those people would still have died in those fires.
I think you just miss the the fire guys that haven't been posting on our new board; and, figured bringing back the old RFS argument might get them back.
Uncle Bob
mark handler
SAWHORSE
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
With budget cuts, and firehouse brownouts in California, sprinklers will save lives, but they are useless in an earthquake due to water main breaks
With budget cuts, and firehouse brownouts in California, sprinklers will save lives, but they are useless in an earthquake due to water main breaks
FM William Burns
Moderator
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
UB,
I respectfully disagree with the survival rate since many would have had an opportunity to escape since the interior area where the fires allegedly began would not have reached the level to heed their egress........IMHO
I do miss the fire guys input on all matters relative to fire like Permit, FireHoss and others but this vocal minority present can still hang with you big boys :lol:
UB,
I respectfully disagree with the survival rate since many would have had an opportunity to escape since the interior area where the fires allegedly began would not have reached the level to heed their egress........IMHO
I do miss the fire guys input on all matters relative to fire like Permit, FireHoss and others but this vocal minority present can still hang with you big boys :lol:
RJJ
Co-Founder
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
FM: Now you no me I like numbers! Now how many of these people died in homes less then 5 years old?
10 years old?
These kind of numbers can create a slanted view.
I notice a few had no working smokes either.
FM: Now you no me I like numbers! Now how many of these people died in homes less then 5 years old?
10 years old?
These kind of numbers can create a slanted view.
I notice a few had no working smokes either.
FM William Burns
Moderator
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
Rjj,
The numbers and ages of the homes are empirically irrelevant since the causes of residential fires and the subsequent conditions affecting ones ability to egress are similar regardless of the structure’s age. The numbers simply verify the fact that these victims could not get out and regardless of the smoke detection or lack thereof, let us remember the discussion on carbon monoxide and fast flamming fires
Rjj,
The numbers and ages of the homes are empirically irrelevant since the causes of residential fires and the subsequent conditions affecting ones ability to egress are similar regardless of the structure’s age. The numbers simply verify the fact that these victims could not get out and regardless of the smoke detection or lack thereof, let us remember the discussion on carbon monoxide and fast flamming fires
incognito
Silver Member
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
FM, I'm guessing the numbers are irrelevant because they do not support the case for residential fire sprinklers. Provide them and let everyone decide on whether they are relevant or not.
FM, I'm guessing the numbers are irrelevant because they do not support the case for residential fire sprinklers. Provide them and let everyone decide on whether they are relevant or not.
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
Residential sprinklers will not make an impact until they are more common.
If you want to see the impact sprinklers make, compare sprinklered communities with nonsprinklered communities.
It is not realistic to assume all fire crews are great at filling out reports so they can generate statistics.
The cause of the fire is not the age of the structure.incognito said:
Residential sprinklers will not make an impact until they are more common.
If you want to see the impact sprinklers make, compare sprinklered communities with nonsprinklered communities.
It is not realistic to assume all fire crews are great at filling out reports so they can generate statistics.
FM William Burns
Moderator
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
Incognito:
The numbers as alluded to by Rjj and my response as “Irrelevant” specifically relates to the age of homes argument being used nationally by opponents of residential sprinklers. The age of the structure has no scientific or empirical methodology to support a sound argument against the inclusion/mandate and as stated; the causes and factors attributed to historic and recent life loss and numbers empirically established and reported support the theory based on the historic evaluations and numbers posted throughout many media sources including the older media once shared by this forum’s membership. You know where to look
I do however agree with ones or state's right to argue the "freedom of choice" by person's wanting to build a new home and that argument is being delivered and dealt with nationally and is in the hands of legislative bodies beyond my control. My response is merely pointing out why the age of homes is “Irrelevant” in any discussion about the topic.
Edit: Clairification
Incognito:
The numbers as alluded to by Rjj and my response as “Irrelevant” specifically relates to the age of homes argument being used nationally by opponents of residential sprinklers. The age of the structure has no scientific or empirical methodology to support a sound argument against the inclusion/mandate and as stated; the causes and factors attributed to historic and recent life loss and numbers empirically established and reported support the theory based on the historic evaluations and numbers posted throughout many media sources including the older media once shared by this forum’s membership. You know where to look
I do however agree with ones or state's right to argue the "freedom of choice" by person's wanting to build a new home and that argument is being delivered and dealt with nationally and is in the hands of legislative bodies beyond my control. My response is merely pointing out why the age of homes is “Irrelevant” in any discussion about the topic.
Edit: Clairification
incognito
Silver Member
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
Only those bent on residential sprinklers at any cost would consider the construction of 30-60 years ago as irrelevant as compared to the construction of today. The improvements in the whole package--electrical, mechanical and structural make todays homes much safer than older homes. Yeah todays homes have engineered wood products but the homes typically experiencing the front page coverage due to fire loss are the old homes constructed with balloon framing and minimal insulation in which the exterior wall cavities provide an open chase from basement to roof line. And lets not forget the electrical improvements such as GFCI's, AFI's and circuit breakers.
There are a lot of people on the fence on this issue but scare tactics and videos of staged fires are not the answer to winning them over. You need to provide factual answers to the questions asked, regardless if you and your pals at NFPA view them as irrelevant. The reality is that NFPA represents companies that stand to reap billions from the residential sprinkler market and the only information they want out is info that supports installation of RFS's.
Only those bent on residential sprinklers at any cost would consider the construction of 30-60 years ago as irrelevant as compared to the construction of today. The improvements in the whole package--electrical, mechanical and structural make todays homes much safer than older homes. Yeah todays homes have engineered wood products but the homes typically experiencing the front page coverage due to fire loss are the old homes constructed with balloon framing and minimal insulation in which the exterior wall cavities provide an open chase from basement to roof line. And lets not forget the electrical improvements such as GFCI's, AFI's and circuit breakers.
There are a lot of people on the fence on this issue but scare tactics and videos of staged fires are not the answer to winning them over. You need to provide factual answers to the questions asked, regardless if you and your pals at NFPA view them as irrelevant. The reality is that NFPA represents companies that stand to reap billions from the residential sprinkler market and the only information they want out is info that supports installation of RFS's.
Mac
Gold Member
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
Brownouts - earthquakes - "empirical methodology".......
(hold on - I gotta get some coffee & donuts - this will be fun!)
Brownouts - earthquakes - "empirical methodology".......
(hold on - I gotta get some coffee & donuts - this will be fun!)
inspecterbake
Sawhorse
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
If we make homes safe all the people of this great nation will stop thinking on there own and this country will suffer greatly in the years to come. I am all for safety but at some point people need to stand up on there own I see the younger generation relying more on those of us who have suceeded in life.
I have never seen such a display of arrogance as the one over spinklers. Please let me explain I am located very very close to the national fire academy and there are people that offered to pay my way all expenses to get my vote, just one problem I can think for myself. No I never voted but that just goes to show you that as inspectors we are loosing the battle to special interest, suppliers, manufactuers,etc.
From 2000 - 2009 the IRC has almost doubled in size how many inspectors had anything to do with that just my opinion. I think that I am not alone on this I have to many fellow code officials who feel the same way.
Okay I vented feel better now till the next code cycle wellll maybe
If we make homes safe all the people of this great nation will stop thinking on there own and this country will suffer greatly in the years to come. I am all for safety but at some point people need to stand up on there own I see the younger generation relying more on those of us who have suceeded in life.
I have never seen such a display of arrogance as the one over spinklers. Please let me explain I am located very very close to the national fire academy and there are people that offered to pay my way all expenses to get my vote, just one problem I can think for myself. No I never voted but that just goes to show you that as inspectors we are loosing the battle to special interest, suppliers, manufactuers,etc.
From 2000 - 2009 the IRC has almost doubled in size how many inspectors had anything to do with that just my opinion. I think that I am not alone on this I have to many fellow code officials who feel the same way.
Okay I vented feel better now till the next code cycle wellll maybe
Builder Bob
Sawhorse
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
Not to change or hi-jack the Topic, but just a few observations along the lines of inspectbake>>>>
When I was younger, we had a true Andy Griffin Sheriff, We could fight in schools - principal would let kids put on boxing gloves and duke it out, thus establishing pecking order, neighbors helped neighbors -
NOW, people call the law, fire, ems to solve the problems of the world. Nobody wants to be the bad guy and heaven forbid if your are politically incorrect and actually speak your mind. Maybe life was simplier back then, but I know that we played, fought, learned, and helped each other back then. Maybe when the brownouts, major electrical systems fail, and we lose cell phones - people will learn how to look across the fence and say " Highy Ho, Neighbor"
Not to change or hi-jack the Topic, but just a few observations along the lines of inspectbake>>>>
When I was younger, we had a true Andy Griffin Sheriff, We could fight in schools - principal would let kids put on boxing gloves and duke it out, thus establishing pecking order, neighbors helped neighbors -
NOW, people call the law, fire, ems to solve the problems of the world. Nobody wants to be the bad guy and heaven forbid if your are politically incorrect and actually speak your mind. Maybe life was simplier back then, but I know that we played, fought, learned, and helped each other back then. Maybe when the brownouts, major electrical systems fail, and we lose cell phones - people will learn how to look across the fence and say " Highy Ho, Neighbor"
FM William Burns
Moderator
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
Those who know me know that I for one advocate safe egress and do not just side with the sprinklers or nothing approach! BTW, I don't side with any interest either except those advocating fire safety
Posters, please keep it civil and do not make it personal!
It’s not the structures or internal systems in most cases causing the fire situation (THAT'S THE POINT OF “Irrelevant”) in the discussion. I have investigated over 700 fires personally and 83% of those fires were caused by preventative human error as the "numbers" depict historically. The "age" or "structural materials" argument has no value on one’s ability to escape (with exception to 1. structural features blocking egress pathways; 2. reduction in required exits; 3. limited ventilation potentials; 3. flame spread potentials and 4. combustibility) and those who understand fire behavior should agree. They do however have great values on the survival of the structure but then please remember residential fire sprinkler systems are intended to save lives not property. Reduction of the fire affecting those structures also increases the survival rate of the structure and this is only an added benefit of the system.
P.S. Electrical systems and supply get a bad rap in many fire investigations because of a lack of detailing the scientific method of investigation.
Inspecterbake, Kudos and agree! I was the elephant in the "room of interests" and as I did, I will always profess and stand for assuring one's ability to escape a fire regardless of what the code has historically allowed thus causing the existing code's stance presently.
BB, Ahhh I remembr those days fondly and IMHO it all began with removing corporal punishment in schools and that comes from one who experienced it first hand to rear
Those who know me know that I for one advocate safe egress and do not just side with the sprinklers or nothing approach! BTW, I don't side with any interest either except those advocating fire safety
Posters, please keep it civil and do not make it personal!
It’s not the structures or internal systems in most cases causing the fire situation (THAT'S THE POINT OF “Irrelevant”) in the discussion. I have investigated over 700 fires personally and 83% of those fires were caused by preventative human error as the "numbers" depict historically. The "age" or "structural materials" argument has no value on one’s ability to escape (with exception to 1. structural features blocking egress pathways; 2. reduction in required exits; 3. limited ventilation potentials; 3. flame spread potentials and 4. combustibility) and those who understand fire behavior should agree. They do however have great values on the survival of the structure but then please remember residential fire sprinkler systems are intended to save lives not property. Reduction of the fire affecting those structures also increases the survival rate of the structure and this is only an added benefit of the system.
P.S. Electrical systems and supply get a bad rap in many fire investigations because of a lack of detailing the scientific method of investigation.
Inspecterbake, Kudos and agree! I was the elephant in the "room of interests" and as I did, I will always profess and stand for assuring one's ability to escape a fire regardless of what the code has historically allowed thus causing the existing code's stance presently.
BB, Ahhh I remembr those days fondly and IMHO it all began with removing corporal punishment in schools and that comes from one who experienced it first hand to rear
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
Old home = burns a long time, lots of real full-size masonry, better lumber, more wood, smells different especially wood lath and plaster, more time to operate inside for rescue and on the roof to ventilate, more chance for no smoke alarms/smoke alarms with dead batteries/no batteries, space heaters...
New home = burns quick, new growth lumber, lots of glue and plastic, lick-and-stick masonry, insulation holds a lot of heat inside, reduced time for rescue, no time for roof ventilation, maybe better smoke alarm coverage...
I'm not getting into demographics but that is a big issue.
When the new homes become the old homes we won't have the old home "benefits" for firefighting. We may have less fires but they will be total losses much quicker.
Old home = burns a long time, lots of real full-size masonry, better lumber, more wood, smells different especially wood lath and plaster, more time to operate inside for rescue and on the roof to ventilate, more chance for no smoke alarms/smoke alarms with dead batteries/no batteries, space heaters...
New home = burns quick, new growth lumber, lots of glue and plastic, lick-and-stick masonry, insulation holds a lot of heat inside, reduced time for rescue, no time for roof ventilation, maybe better smoke alarm coverage...
I'm not getting into demographics but that is a big issue.
When the new homes become the old homes we won't have the old home "benefits" for firefighting. We may have less fires but they will be total losses much quicker.
mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
It is not how long it burns it is "how quickly it will engulf" and I believe the fixtures and furnishings is the biggest contributor to how fast a fire spreads and smoke developes. Can sprinklers help? Yes. Should they be mandated in 1 & 2 family dwellings? I don't support that at this time. I believe there should be a move to have fire retardant materials used in the manufacture of the items that contribute more to smoke and the spread of fire. These items would find there way into new and old homes faster and have a more positive and broader effect then sprinklering new homes. JMHO
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
The non building inspector in me wonders if I want to wake up in the moring next to BIG BROTHER (government) or my wife or maybe Pamala Anderson.
1) Will I be able to go down to the local hardware store or the the big box to get parts for the RFS system?
2) Will I be able to do add-ons or make repairs or is that another expence when I have to hire it done?
3) Will an outside company have to inspect the system like the commercial jobs and certify the project when installed and after?
4) Who will make sure the little wife does'nt hang the newly pressed shirts on the sprinkler heads?
5) Why are we burding only new residential construction with this? What about grandma's place?
6) Will the insurance company lower my rates then a year later raise them again?
7) Will the district fire department expand bodies (add more employees) and need a levy hike for payrole raising my taxes?
Wondering minds need to know, and my mine is wondering right now! :roll:
The non building inspector in me wonders if I want to wake up in the moring next to BIG BROTHER (government) or my wife or maybe Pamala Anderson.
1) Will I be able to go down to the local hardware store or the the big box to get parts for the RFS system?
2) Will I be able to do add-ons or make repairs or is that another expence when I have to hire it done?
3) Will an outside company have to inspect the system like the commercial jobs and certify the project when installed and after?
4) Who will make sure the little wife does'nt hang the newly pressed shirts on the sprinkler heads?
5) Why are we burding only new residential construction with this? What about grandma's place?
6) Will the insurance company lower my rates then a year later raise them again?
7) Will the district fire department expand bodies (add more employees) and need a levy hike for payrole raising my taxes?
Wondering minds need to know, and my mine is wondering right now! :roll:
FM William Burns
Moderator
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
(1) If one is qualified but for the lay person hopefully not and in those cases if necessary; if a part is needed one should contact the installing firm or individual who installed it.
(2) Shouldn’t need additions if installed correctly and again if adding on square footage one should have it professionally done unless one is qualified.
(3) Nope, hopefully a qualified code official should be able to inspect and witness the final acceptance of the system.
(4) You, just like putting stuff too close to your gas water heater (if applicable).
(5) So in the future we don’t have as many losses like we do presently in grandma’s and other’s houses. (we all pay for the losses.........just ask a friend in the insurance industry)
(6) Some do and some don’t 12% in our region and just like any good consumer, shop around. Part 2 - they may raise them if you practice (1 or 2) above.
(7) NO....... most are laying off now and many more will be doing with less by 2012 and there will be less to fight the fires at grandma’s......... trust me on this one.
(1) If one is qualified but for the lay person hopefully not and in those cases if necessary; if a part is needed one should contact the installing firm or individual who installed it.
(2) Shouldn’t need additions if installed correctly and again if adding on square footage one should have it professionally done unless one is qualified.
(3) Nope, hopefully a qualified code official should be able to inspect and witness the final acceptance of the system.
(4) You, just like putting stuff too close to your gas water heater (if applicable).
(5) So in the future we don’t have as many losses like we do presently in grandma’s and other’s houses. (we all pay for the losses.........just ask a friend in the insurance industry)
(6) Some do and some don’t 12% in our region and just like any good consumer, shop around. Part 2 - they may raise them if you practice (1 or 2) above.
(7) NO....... most are laying off now and many more will be doing with less by 2012 and there will be less to fight the fires at grandma’s......... trust me on this one.
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS
FM,
Thanks for your responce to the questions I posted, they came from the local coffee shop, with a couple questions from some pretty good contractors.
I'll let you know if they gang up on me again with another round. :|
FM,
Thanks for your responce to the questions I posted, they came from the local coffee shop, with a couple questions from some pretty good contractors.
I'll let you know if they gang up on me again with another round. :|