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REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS

Re: FYI Warwick RI 5 Death

TJacobs said:
The argument that the anti-sprinkler lobby uses of age of buildings could be said for any code cycle:"[insert new code section or code change here] will only effect new homes so it won't solve [insert safety issue here] in existing homes, so there is no [insert safety issue here]." Cite phony statistics to prove there is no [insert safety issue here].

Therefore, because we have millions of existing homes we should never improve the code. Save a lot of money in hearings, travel, meals, lodging, publishing, etc. Everything is wonderful... :roll:
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Many people, myself included, don't see a pattern of massive changes to the requirements every three years as equating with an improved code.

Particularly given the half-assed way in which they are written and implemented without consideration of compliance and enforcement issues v. actual benefits over the long term.

The building codes and particularly the residential codes should be simple, flexible, and the absolute minimum necessary to provide a reasonable level of safety.

Instead, we have the solutions to localized issues mandated as a national standard...minimum header size designed for 30lbs of snow load, anyone?
 
Re: FYI Warwick RI 5 Death

Over time, I believe that many home sprinkler systems will be turned off in colder climates where bursting pipes are an issue.One of the underlying assumptions of residential sprinklers is that people will continue to heat inefficiently.
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There is no difference then that in maintaining your heat above 39F to prevent your plumbing service from pipe bursts in colder climates.

As is people will still smoke, not maintain smoke detection, store combustibles too close to ignition sources and fall asleep while cooking.
 
Re: FYI Warwick RI 5 Death

An obstical to including age of the structure on the fire report is that this information is often not available to any degree of certainty the resulting responses would often be guesses that could be off by decades.

That said, I have worked a fire fatality in a new not yet COed residence as well as residences over a century old.
 
Re: FYI Warwick RI 5 Death

FM William Burns said:
Over time, I believe that many home sprinkler systems will be turned off in colder climates where bursting pipes are an issue.One of the underlying assumptions of residential sprinklers is that people will continue to heat inefficiently.
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There is no difference then that in maintaining your heat above 39F to prevent your plumbing service from pipe bursts in colder climates.

As is people will still smoke, not maintain smoke detection, store combustibles too close to ignition sources and fall asleep while cooking.

There is a difference in where you have to maintain the heat...eg the attic.

There is also the ability to drip your plumbing but not your sprinkler system.

Finally, you can dwell in a house with the sprinklers turned off much more easily than you can when the plumbing is off...if a sprinkler pipe bursts, you can shut off the valve and go on with your daily activities in a way that you can't when your domestic water is turned off.
 
Re: FYI Warwick RI 5 Death

"Finally, you can dwell in a house with the sprinklers turned off much more easily than you can when the plumbing is off...if a sprinkler pipe bursts, you can shut off the valve and go on with your daily activities in a way that you can't when your domestic water is turned off."

No, you can't. A multi-purpose RFS in compliance with P2904 (which I am thinking will be the more often installed system, JMHO) would not allow the installation of a shutoff valve, as the entire plumbing system would be rendered unusable. And in the case of stand-alone systems, P2904 specifically does not allow a separate shutoff valve for the sprinkler system.
 
Re: FYI Warwick RI 5 Death

fatboy said:
"Finally, you can dwell in a house with the sprinklers turned off much more easily than you can when the plumbing is off...if a sprinkler pipe bursts, you can shut off the valve and go on with your daily activities in a way that you can't when your domestic water is turned off."No, you can't. A multi-purpose RFS in compliance with P2904 (which I am thinking will be the more often installed system, JMHO) would not allow the installation of a shutoff valve, as the entire plumbing system would be rendered unusable. And in the case of stand-alone systems, P2904 specifically does not allow a separate shutoff valve for the sprinkler system.
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Which part of 2904 prohibits shutoffs?
 
Re: FYI Warwick RI 5 Death

P2904.3.2 Shutoff valves prohibited. With the exception of shutoff valves for the entire water distribution system, valves shall not be installed in any location where the valve would isolate piping serving one or more sprinklers.

However, you can have a stand alone sprikler system and it would have its own shut off valve.
 
Re: FYI Warwick RI 5 Death

"Which part of 2904 prohibits shutoffs?"

Have you even read this section?

Do you have a code book?

Or, is it as I posted recently, you just like to sit in the back and bitch.... (which you acknowledged you did)

If you want to argue, please make it an informed argument, not just for the sake of arguing.

EDIT: No Coug, you can't isolate the sprinklers from the water distributuion system. P2904.3.2 is a subsection of 2904.3, which speaks to both types of systems. Shut-off valves not allowed.
 
Re: FYI Warwick RI 5 Death

brudgers said:
There is a difference in where you have to maintain the heat...eg the attic.There is also the ability to drip your plumbing but not your sprinkler system.

Finally, you can dwell in a house with the sprinklers turned off much more easily than you can when the plumbing is off...if a sprinkler pipe bursts, you can shut off the valve and go on with your daily activities in a way that you can't when your domestic water is turned off.
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* Sprinklers not required in Attics for single-family

* In climates where freezing is common "dripping" will freeze your pipes and does not subsitute the >39F necessary to begin the

liq/solid transformation.

* The supporting arguments provided by others RE: P2904 address that.
 
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS

P2904.1 General. Where installed, residential fire sprinkler systems, or portions thereof, shall be in accordance with NFPA 13D or Section P2904, which shall be considered equivalent to NFPA 13D. Section P2904 shall apply to stand-alone and multipurpose wet-pipe sprinkler systems that do not include the use of antifreeze. A multipurpose fire sprinkler system shall supply domestic water to both fire sprinklers and plumbing fixtures. A stand-alone sprinkler system shall be separate and independent from the water distribution system. A backflow flow preventer shall not be required to separate a stand-alone sprinkler system from the water distribution system.

So, it I opt to go with a stand alone system as allowed by code, it can be shut off without impacting the domestic system.
 
Re: FYI Warwick RI 5 Death

fatboy said:
"Which part of 2904 prohibits shutoffs?"Have you even read this section?

Do you have a code book?

Or, is it as I posted recently, you just like to sit in the back and bitch.... (which you acknowledged you did)

If you want to argue, please make it an informed argument, not just for the sake of arguing.
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A question isn't an argument.

The provision does not appear in the index of the online tool I was using...for better or worse I haven't had to deal with IRC 2009 so no book at this time.

And of course stand alone systems can be shut off...my understanding is that some people actually favor such systems as they allow protection when domestic service is cut off...such as when someone doesn't pay their bill.

I'll add that I would want a shut off for maintenance regardless of configuration and suspect that this will be a common modification the first time a piece of the system has to be replaced or repaired...irrespective of what the code requires.

My opinion is that prohibiting shut offs is bad code, it's the equivalent of requiring smoke detectors to be hard wired back to the main disconnect.

Make maintenance a hassle, and a person is more likely just to install a cap on the sprinkler supply rather than a valve.

Sensible codes realize that most people don't unplug their smoke detectors without a reason, and the approach to sprinklers should be the same.
 
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS

Coug Dad said:
So, it I opt to go with a stand alone system as allowed by code, it can be shut off without impacting the domestic system.
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Absolutely.

That's what I love about the IRC.

Shut offs are prohibited because they're unsafe, except that they're allowed if you pay double tap fees.
 
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS

Additonally, the 2009 IRC code permits installations per NFPA 13-D OR IRC Chapter 29. If I opt to go with NFPA 13-D, it permits shut off valves.
 
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS

IRC (2009) Section 2904.3.2 states:

P2904.3.2 Shutoff valves prohibited. With the exception of shutoff valves for the entire water distribution system, valves shall not be installed in any location where the valve would isolate piping serving one or more sprinklers.

However, the definitions of the various components are as follows:

WATER-DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM. Piping which conveys water from the service to the plumbing fixtures, appliances, appurtenances, equipment, devices or other systems served, including fittings and control valves.

WATER MAIN. A water-supply pipe for public use.

WATER-SERVICE PIPE. The outside pipe from the water main or other source of potable water supply to the water-distribution system inside the building, terminating at the service valve.

WATER-SUPPLY SYSTEM. The water-service pipe, the water-distributing pipes and the necessary connecting pipes, fittings, control valves and all appurtenances in or adjacent to the building or premises.

Under the IRC, you could have a WATER SUPPLY SYSTEM that consists of a WATER SERVICE PIPE that then splits into a WATER DISTIBUTION SYSTEM that serves the plumbing and a separate sprinkler system. There could be a valve in the sprinkler system.
 
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS

brudgers said:
Make maintenance a hassle, and a person is more likely just to install a cap on the sprinkler supply rather than a valve.Sensible codes realize that most people don't unplug their smoke detectors without a reason, and the approach to sprinklers should be the same.
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Ok...think I'm getting a handle...we're pretty much on the same page ;) .... :idea: ...:lol:
 
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS

Just give tyco some time and the will have a display. :D

CA: If you look at 13d objectively these systems are very simple and other then the point of entry to the building, with the splitting of the domestic and fire service connection they remain simple.

The CPVC piping is not rocket science and the selection of heads for coverage is still basic. Not saying that care during installation, proper strapping, frost protection are not issues to be concerned with, they are! But over the last year I have inspected a number of these installation in one of my new ahj's and have been impressed with the ease and professionalism of the contractors installing them.

Ya all know, I voted against this whole mess in the Twin cities and in Baltimore. Those no votes were base on a different principal then the mechanics of installation. I have also exhausted my self on the actual cost of install and don't disagree with the totals put forth across the country.

If a home owner wanted to install one I would have second thought about that and would advise to seek help. I would have know problem with a good plumber doing the same. Most here are being installed by sprinkler contractors. Only have one plumber this year. His work was excellent, but he said he could not make any money doing that type of work.
 
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS

FM William Burns said:
brudgers said:
Make maintenance a hassle, and a person is more likely just to install a cap on the sprinkler supply rather than a valve.Sensible codes realize that most people don't unplug their smoke detectors without a reason, and the approach to sprinklers should be the same.
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Ok...think I'm getting a handle...we're pretty much on the same page ;) .... :idea: ...:lol:

And sprinklers should be opt in, not mandatory.
 
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS

And sprinklers should be opt in, not mandatory.
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As I've always maintained and demonstrated in Baltimore........ agreed provided the historic fire safety feature reductions in the IRC's improved development were brought back; not only to provide escapability but safety to those of us entering a fire.
 
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS

FYI: Missouri

http://www.fmamonline.com/attachments/072_MO%20Res%20Sprink%20Agreement.pdf

The state has passed a law that gives the owner the option of having sprinklers installed regardless of what code is adopted. It sunsets December 31, 2011.

The stated intent is to give communities and builders a chance to adjust to the requirement before being required to comply.

:?: :?
 
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS

Let the owner make a decision. Now there's a novel idea. A spec home would then be almost fully finished before the buyer has the informed option? It is unilkely a buyer would want the drywall cut into in order to faciltate sprinklers.

What happens with a spec home that is essentially finished, but not purchased, before the sunset date?
 
Re: REASONS FOR RESIDENTIAL SPRINKLERS

I would think that in a spec home, the buyer is the developer so it woudl be up to the developer whether to put them in or not. He'd have to ask himself if he wanted sprinklers or not. strange law. . . . .
 
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