Restroom Rqmts for Small Restaurant in Colorado

[Michael.L]

Tell Steve hello

I have had several classes he has taught

Sure. Will he know you by CDA?

 

[cda]

Sure. Will he know you by CDA?

No

Just a student from BPI

 

[mtlogcabin]

I would show 1 accessible restroom and remove the existing. I would then reference 3411.7 that your one new restroom exceeds the 20% cost threshold requirement for meeting accessibility. You might want to use fixed benches/seating to reduce the OL. Then again if you have a reasonable BO he can reduce the OL on his own per

1004.1.2 Areas without fixed seating.

Exception: Where approved by the building official, the actual number of occupants for whom each occupied space, floor or building is designed, although less than those determined by calculation, shall be permitted to be used in the determination of the design occupant load.

One restroom would mean the space was designed for no more than 15 occupants per code.

 

[sergoodo]

Seems reasonable the code official will allow, they can, besides, you are not changing the use which has 1 lav existing. Request from landlord the existing occupancy load card and do not exceed that amount. Submit to permit the alterations including req. ADA modifications, no bother with new occ calc for fixtures if customer area does not change.

 

[Michael.L]

Seems reasonable the code official will allow, they can, besides, you are not changing the use which has 1 lav existing. Request from landlord the existing occupancy load card and do not exceed that amount. Submit to permit the alterations including req. ADA modifications, no bother with new occ calc for fixtures if customer area does not change.

I thought grandfathered compliances go out the window once you do a major renovation of a space. The yogurt shop was probably built-out in the 1980's, so the way they calculated OL and restroom requirements was likely different than now. I realize that the government can't go into a business that's been operating for 30+ years, shut them down, and make them rebuild everything to current code. But I thought that once the space undergoes significant construction (either by the existing tenant or by a new tenant), then the new code requirements kick in.

Am I wrong?

 

[steveray]

I thought grandfathered compliances go out the window once you do a major renovation of a space. The yogurt shop was probably built-out in the 1980's, so the way they calculated OL and restroom requirements was likely different than now. I realize that the government can't go into a business that's been operating for 30+ years, shut them down, and make them rebuild everything to current code. But I thought that once the space undergoes significant construction (either by the existing tenant or by a new tenant), then the new code requirements kick in.

Am I wrong?

Yes, IEBC, based on level of work, will tell you what else needs to be upgraded....

 

[ADAguy]

Donut shops by their nature survive based on sales, sales require quick in/quick out not, lingering over coffee like a Starbucks. Can you put a service counter on the outside for walkups, increase your display area and back of house and reduce your interior table area?
Also, your local health department must buy into your layout, separating the public from the back of house.
Sorry that I didn't see this posting under access first as it answered some questions you made there.

 

[Michael.L]

Donut shops by their nature survive based on sales, sales require quick in/quick out not, lingering over coffee like a Starbucks. Can you put a service counter on the outside for walkups, increase your display area and back of house and reduce your interior table area?

Ours will be a donut and coffee cafe. So we will have both quick take-away sales and a limited number of customers dining-in while lingering over their "Double Ristretto Venti Half-Soy Nonfat Decaf Organic Chocolate Brownie Vanilla Double-Shot Gingerbread Frappuccino Extra Hot with Foam Whipped Cream Upside Down Double Blended with Ice."

No, there's no ability in this space to put an outside service counter.

 

[ADAguy]

I see, a real "chi-chi" at the bowling alley place. Will your donuts and lattes' be "infused" (smiling?).

 

[Michael.L]

I was just being facetious about the insane Starbucks-like drink order. But we will be serving espressos, cappuccinos, lattes, etc. (in addition to our donuts), so a step up from the plain brewed coffee currently offered at the bowling alley's kitchen. While we will be treading a bit on their toes with regard to coffee sales, ultimately there should be some synergy between our shop and the bowling alley. So hopefully, both our business and theirs will benefit from the close-proximity relationship. They are already aware of our plans and they do not object.

 

[sergoodo]

I just think the focus is wrong, determine what you need to make the business successful, 1 or 2 restrooms?... rather than ratcheting down your customer area. A major renovation for your business, however by code this is a simple non structural alteration and the problem presented is non life safety problem. Principal is in your corner, hammer that point into your architect to obtain the best solution, because there are many.

 

[Michael.L]

I just think the focus is wrong, determine what you need to make the business successful, 1 or 2 restrooms?... rather than ratcheting down your customer area. A major renovation for your business, however by code this is a simple non structural alteration and the problem presented is non life safety problem. Principal is in your corner, hammer that point into your architect to obtain the best solution, because there are many.

Believe me, I'm in total agreement with you. There is no reason for our small, mostly takeout, business to have more than one restroom. Especially since most of our dine-in customers will be seated during the time when the bowling alley is also open and our customers will have access to their restrooms too. Originally, I was hoping to avoid the need to apply for a variance because I was worried about our construction timetable being bogged down in public hearings and lengthy approval processes. But the prospects of artificially constricting our customer area or building two ADA restrooms are both onerous.

So, apply for a variance we will... if that's what it takes.

 

[ADAguy]

I don't see any hardship justification here only an attempt to pour ten pounds of sugar into a five pound sack. It is not equal for a wheelchair user to have to leave the building when an ambulatory person doesn't.

 

[manifold]

Based on your description, it sounds like this would be a Level 3 alteration under the IEBC (no change of occupancy since it was previously permitted as a yogurt shop). In which case this section could be helpful:

810.1 Minimum fixtures. Where the occupant load of the
story is increased by more than 20 percent, plumbing fixtures
for the story shall be provided in quantities specified in the
International Plumbing Code based on the increased occupant
load.

If you can provide a study showing the previous and new occupant loads and show that you are below this 20% threshold, it would be a good justification for a single restroom. I imagine that it shouldn't be too difficult to juggle the numbers to get the occupants you need for the new business.

The restroom would still need to be made ADA compliant.

 

[Michael.L]

I don't see any hardship justification here only an attempt to pour ten pounds of sugar into a five pound sack. It is not equal for a wheelchair user to have to leave the building when an ambulatory person doesn't.

I'm trying to convert the existing single staff-only restroom to a single ADA restroom available to both staff and customers. How is that discriminating against a wheelchair user or favoring an ambulatory person?

 

[Michael.L]

Based on your description, it sounds like this would be a Level 3 alteration under the IEBC (no change of occupancy since it was previously permitted as a yogurt shop). In which case this section could be helpful:

810.1 Minimum fixtures. Where the occupant load of the
story is increased by more than 20 percent, plumbing fixtures
for the story shall be provided in quantities specified in the
International Plumbing Code based on the increased occupant
load.

If you can provide a study showing the previous and new occupant loads and show that you are below this 20% threshold, it would be a good justification for a single restroom. I imagine that it shouldn't be too difficult to juggle the numbers to get the occupants you need for the new business.

The restroom would still need to be made ADA compliant.

Thank you. This is very helpful.

Does it matter that the previous yogurt shop's restroom was for staff only?

 

[manifold]

Thank you. This is very helpful.

Does it matter that the previous yogurt shop's restroom was for staff only?

No, that should not matter.

 

[ADAguy]

I'm trying to convert the existing single staff-only restroom to a single ADA restroom available to both staff and customers. How is that discriminating against a wheelchair user or favoring an ambulatory person?

Not an issue if only one RR is required, it becomes an issue of 2 are required and the in-house is occupied. Is a health dept. permit required? Do they also have requirements for staff vs customers?

 

[Michael.L]

Not an issue if only one RR is required, it becomes an issue of 2 are required and the in-house is occupied. Is a health dept. permit required? Do they also have requirements for staff vs customers?

If we are required to have two restrooms available to customers, then both would be ADA. The preferred option for us is a single ADA restroom.

The other option I was exploring would be if occupancy loads require more than one restroom, could we have one publically-available ADA unisex restroom and one staff-only non-ADA restroom. In other words, could we split the OL between staff and customers? Of course, the staff restroom would not be available for customer use. So again, how would that discriminate against wheelchair-bound vs ambulatory customers?

 

[ADAguy]

Now you would be discriminating against a disabled employee. Remember that disabilities come in many flavors. An accessible RR will accommodate not only wc's but also "large" employees.

 

[Michael.L]

Now you would be discriminating against a disabled employee. Remember that disabilities come in many flavors. An accessible RR will accommodate not only wc's but also "large" employees.

Hypothetically.

The idea was that we not alter the existing tiny staff-only restroom so that we wouldn't be required to rebuild it to ADA, thus allowing us to build only one publically-accessible ADA restroom (which will be MORE THAN ENOUGH for our very small shop).

 

[ADAguy]

Staff may exit the back of house to use the new accessible RR but the public usually is not allowed to use the back of house RR. so, one existing noncompliant, one new accessible, ok?

 

[Michael.L]

Staff may exit the back of house to use the new accessible RR but the public usually is not allowed to use the back of house RR. so, one existing noncompliant, one new accessible, ok?

We could create "What if" scenarios all day. For example: What if we are required to have two ADA restrooms, we build two ADA restrooms, and then three people need to use the restroom at the same time?

The hypothetical should not make reality impossible to achieve. My goal is not to discriminate against any people, customers or staff, who need to avail themselves of a restroom. The reality, based on our experience with a similarly-sized cafe in California that has been operating for 50 years with just one non-ADA restroom, was that very few customers ever used the restroom. Forcing us to build-out two ADA restrooms, at significant cost and consumption of ~10% of our total floor space creates an undue hardship for no practical reason other than to meet hypothetical situations.

Which raises another point: it seems that the requirement for two restrooms when OL > 15 was based on the need for one restroom for men and a second for women (I draw this conclusion because the requirement specifically states that the two restrooms must be assigned as one for men and one for women). Now that the country is moving towards designating all single-occupancy restrooms as unisex, it seems to me that the OL requirements need to be revisited.

 

[ADAguy]

Now "that" is a truism which the local AHJ can "choose" to allow, or not"
Be thankful you don't also have a liquor license where both a urinal and a toilet are required in your RR.