Shouldn't my architect know the building use codes and not need to call zoning?

[Yankee Chronicler]

This may seem like a big project to the original poster, but to an architect, this may be a relatively small fee for the risk of not doing their own due diligence. Asking the architect to not do his own due diligence is akin to going to a doctor for an annual checkup and saying you want a 20% discount because you already measured your own vitals.

A real-life example from my own architectural career: I had a client that asked me to do a building interior remodel for a very low fee, and they removed all zoning code review and gave me their own site plan for use. They actually did a pretty good job on the site plan, so it was complete enough for plan check submittal.
The problem was, I still had to spend time to write the contract in such a way that I was not responsible for zoning compliance, that I was entitled to rely on the owner-supplied zoning and site information, and the owner would indemnify, defend and hold me harmless for any missing or incorrect zoning information, and finally that any additional work necessitated by the owner-supplied information would be an additional service.

In other words, it cost me time and money to draft a contract that deleted normally assumed scope of work. Of course I recovered that time in my basic fee.

Fast forward, the plans are submitted, and the city planner discovers that not only will there be an increase in required parking, but even the existing parking striping was bootlegged and undersized. When the client did their own zoning research, they only looked for allowable uses; they did not know that the parking requirements were also part of the zoning code. Now the client was on the hook to correct the parking problem, and that modification triggered accessible parking upgrades, and that triggered grading changes, and the grading changes triggered onsite stormwater processing, etc.

This brings to mind the recent discussion about giving a presentation on how to pass an inspection. Several of the comments related to the theme of "Don't cheap out on fees up front, it costs more money in the end."

 

[mark handler]

 

[jlfitz67]

Not sure why that is. You came here with guns blazing and very aggressive. All we did was try to help and you were defensive because you had an agenda and wanted someone to tell you what you wanted to hear. Maybe this is not the place for you. We are trying to help, but your attitude is getting in your own way.

How does someone delete their account here?

 

[Inspector Gadget]

This made me cry so sorry I ever came here

How does someone delete their account here?

If receiving valuable - and more accurately, correct - information is that traumatic, stop replying. It's just that simple.

 

[tmurray]

I'm really confused. Are you asking about the use under the building code or the zoning code?

 

[fatboy]

Turn off any notifications,, log out, and don't open the site again!

 

[jlfitz67]

If receiving valuable - and more accurately, correct - information is that traumatic, stop replying. It's just that simple.

Wow dude. Back atcha! Derp. Guess you have never been on the other side. Have a nice life.

 

[ICE]

Where did Derp come from?

• The origin of derp can be traced back to the animated show South Park. In a 1998 comedy called Baseketball, one of the characters exclaims “Derp!” after being caught examining a woman’s vibrator. This catchphrase was later incorporated into South Park, where a character named Mr. Derp performed silly slapstick gags.

What's with you guys unloading on the hapless female? I for one welcome the break from mundane blather about this "turning radius" and that "fire rating". Lighten up and give her some room.

I challenge any one of you to show your response to the woman that you live with... let's see how you like cold dinners for a while. "That's horrible" is the reaction I would get. Remember Bluto, women have a whole other way of reacting to the world we live in. From the start I wondered why she had an architect and an engineer for such a simple project. $2000.00 for plans she doesn't need. On top of that the architect charges for phone calls ... that her paying for his education.

 

[mark handler]

I'm really confused. Are you asking about the use under the building code or the zoning code?

That is why he needs a professional. He does not know, what he does not know.
See his original post.

 

[Yikes]

I just need a stamped drawing

I am not asking him to sign my drawings

Here we see the crux of the issue, and perhaps why you consider the responses to be hostile. You say you need a drawing that is stamped but not signed.
For purposes of plan check, these two terms mean the same thing. “Stamped” = professional seal with signature.
From your first post, the people responding to you are taking it as a given that you need stamped, signed, PROFESSIONALLY PREPARED plans.

So the real question that you need to ask your building department is: what is the minimum code-required professional stamp needed on the plans to either have a complete submittal for plan check and/or pull a permit for the work?
You might find that none is needed at all, in which case it is analogous to going to the pharmacy and buying aspirin over-the-counter. You can do the drawing yourself, or you can search Yelp or Google for “drafting service”, which will probably cost less than an architect. All the associated risk is then entirely on you.

However, if the building department says that the code requires a licensed architect or engineer, then telling that design professional “I just need a stamped drawing, not research” is like going to a doctor and saying “I will only pay for the time it takes you to write the prescription for pill X, because I already diagnosed myself”.

 

[SCBO1]

I use to require stamped, signed and dated on paper plans. Now I'm asked if it can be done electronically.

Any issues with receiving the stamped designs electronically?

 

[mark handler]

I use to require stamped, signed and dated on paper plans. Now I'm asked if it can be done electronically.

Any issues with receiving the stamped designs electronically?

The state of CA, allows Electronically stamped submittals.

 

[MKALLAY]

How does someone delete their account here?

Just go away. No one will bother you anymore.

 

[SCBO1]

I would think someone from hell would ask the forum some AC questions?

Those answers are free.

 

[walker.t]

Any issues with receiving the stamped designs electronically?

Maybe this thread has discussion you will find helpful:

Digitally Signed and Sealed Drawings

If you accept digital plans, are you required to verify the signature? Are you required to verify them but you just don't know it? Here in Florida, yes, it is written into the State Statutes so this has become part of the plan review process.

www.thebuildingcodeforum.com

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

I use to require stamped, signed and dated on paper plans. Now I'm asked if it can be done electronically.

Any issues with receiving the stamped designs electronically?

It depends on the jurisdiction. My state allows digital seals/signatures, but there's a laundry list of requirements to qualify as a "digital" seal and signature. The primary criteria are third party authentication, and a unique security key that is controlled only by the individual design professional. In other words, doing what it seems like every architect and engineer in the state is doing and simply pasting a JPEG scan of their seal and signature onto each sheet of the drawings does NOT constitute a digital seal and signature. Electronic, yes -- digital, no.

If a seal and signature comply with the requirements, when the document is opened in Adobe Acrobat, Adobe Reader, or Bluebeam, a notice will pop up indicating that the document has been digitally signed, and whether or not the security key is currently valid or if it has expired.

Another of the requirements is that if anything on the page/sheet is edited after the digital seal has been affixed, either the seal self-deletes or a notice is generated to alert viewers that the document has been modified after it was sealed and signed.

I suspect other states and jurisdictions have similar rules. Ironically (or perhaps not), we get far more construction documents from out of state design professionals with compliant digital seals/signatures than we do from in-state design professionals. Also, anecdotally I believe that engineers are more likely to get it right than architects.

 

[Yikes]

It depends on the jurisdiction. My state allows digital seals/signatures, but there's a laundry list of requirements to qualify as a "digital" seal and signature. The primary criteria are third party authentication, and a unique security key that is controlled only by the individual design professional. In other words, doing what it seems like every architect and engineer in the state is doing and simply pasting a JPEG scan of their seal and signature onto each sheet of the drawings does NOT constitute a digital seal and signature. Electronic, yes -- digital, no.

If a seal and signature comply with the requirements, when the document is opened in Adobe Acrobat, Adobe Reader, or Bluebeam, a notice will pop up indicating that the document has been digitally signed, and whether or not the security key is currently valid or if it has expired.

Another of the requirements is that if anything on the page/sheet is edited after the digital seal has been affixed, either the seal self-deletes or a notice is generated to alert viewers that the document has been modified after it was sealed and signed.

I suspect other states and jurisdictions have similar rules. Ironically (or perhaps not), we get far more construction documents from out of state design professionals with compliant digital seals/signatures than we do from in-state design professionals. Also, anecdotally I believe that engineers are more likely to get it right than architects.

YC, can you give the name of the company or system that does this digital authentication, self-deleting, etc. ? I’d like to find out more.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

YC, can you give the name of the company or system that does this digital authentication, self-deleting, etc. ? I’d like to find out more.

Here's one -- perhaps the best known, but not the only one. This will get you started;

What is a Digital Signature & How Do I Create One?

Learn about how digital signatures differ from electronic signatures and how you can use them.

www.docusign.com

 

[Yikes]

Here's one -- perhaps the best known, but not the only one. This will get you started;

What is a Digital Signature & How Do I Create One?

Learn about how digital signatures differ from electronic signatures and how you can use them.

www.docusign.com

Thanks, I’ve used docusign before. I just hadn’t thought about integrating it with our stamps and plan check submittals.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

Thanks, I’ve used docusign before. I just hadn’t thought about integrating it with our stamps and plan check submittals.

My state has, for many years, required either "wet" stamps (embossed or inked seal with an original signature on each sheet), or a digital seal/signature that complies with a laundry list of criteria:

(c) An embossing seal, rubber stamp or electronic seal conforming to the seals prescribed pursuant to subsection (a) or (b) of this section may be used by the licensee. Any other seal or rubber stamp, or any variation thereof, is disapproved and shall not be used.

(d) An electronic seal shall be permitted on electronic documents if all the following criteria are met:

(1) It is unique to the architect;

(2) It is verifiable;

(3) It is under the architect's direct and exclusive control;

(4) It is linked to the electronic document in such a manner that causes changes to be easily determined and visually displayed if any data in the electronic document file is changed subsequent to the electronic seal having been affixed to the electronic document;

(5) Any attempt to change the electronic document after the electronic seal is affixed shall cause the electronic seal to be removed or altered significantly enough to invalidate the electronic seal; and

(6) Any time the electronic document is to be electronically transmitted, the electronic document shall be converted to a read-only format.

It's unlikely that this backwards state would be ahead of California on something like this. It wouldn't surprise me if California has similar requirements. That said, I gave up my California license a number of years ago because I couldn't justify the cost, so I no longer receive information from the California licensing board.

 

[walker.t]

My state has, for many years, required either "wet" stamps (embossed or inked seal with an original signature on each sheet), or a digital seal/signature that complies with a laundry list of criteria:

How do you handle something that has been wet stamped and then scanned, like maybe a letter from a structural engineer or geotechnical report? Seems like those would also need some sort of digital signature protection.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

How do you handle something that has been wet stamped and then scanned, like maybe a letter from a structural engineer or geotechnical report? Seems like those would also need some sort of digital signature protection.

Yes, engineers' report and letters are subject to the same requirements. Parsed to their essence, the regulations for engineers in this state basically say that anything that leaves their office for engineering purposes has to be sealed and signed. There's only one regulation, so everything requires either an original signature or a digital seal/signature. Wet sealing and then scanning for distribution is not allowed by the regulations.

Here's the regulation for engineers. It's formatted slightly different than the one for architects, but the criteria are essentially the same:

(c) In lieu of a handwritten signature and live seal on paper documents, a licensee shall be permitted to place a digital signature on electronic documents if all of the following criteria are met:

(1) The digital signing process satisfies the requirements of the Digital Signature Standard (“DSS”) established by the National Institute of Standards and Technology. This standard may be obtained at the following website: http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/;

(2) The digital signature keys are unique to the licensee;

(3) The digital signature keys can be verified by a trusted third party or some other approved process as belonging to the licensee;

(4) The private key used for signing electronic documents is under the licensee's direct and exclusive control; and

(5) An electronic document that is altered in any way after being digitally signed fails the verification process.

(6) A licensee may transmit an electronic document without a digital signature provided that any graphical facsimile of the licensee's handwritten signature or stamp does not appear on the document. For cases where the facsimile signature or stamp cannot be erased or removed, a note shall be placed on the document in a prominent location stating that “This shall not be considered a sealed document.”

(d) An electronic document, digitally signed according to the criteria described in subsection (c) of this section, shall be considered “sealed by” or “stamped with a seal of” a licensed surveyor or a licensed professional engineer.

(e) Users of private digital keys are responsible for their use in digitally signing electronic documents. A lost or compromised private digital key shall be reported to the board and the department of consumer protection immediately, but not later than fifteen (15) days after discovery. In such cases, the lost or compromised key shall not be used and the licensee shall cause a new key pair to be generated in accordance with the criteria described in subsection (c) of this section. Failure to report such loss may subject the holder to disciplinary action by the board. Misuse of the lost or compromised key by others shall remain the responsibility of the licensee until such misuse or loss is reported pursuant to this subsection.

If an engineer wants to distribute a letter or report to multiple parties, he/she has to apply the digital seal to the original document. A scan of the seal and signature doesn't meet the requirements for a digital seal/signature.

 

[Yankee Chronicler]

How do you handle something that has been wet stamped and then scanned, like maybe a letter from a structural engineer or geotechnical report? Seems like those would also need some sort of digital signature protection.

I realize that my answer above was a long-ish way of not directly answering the question. The short answer is that we don't accept documents that have (allegedly) been wet stamped and then scanned. Once it has been scanned, we have no way of knowing if the entire page was scanned, or if the seal and signature were scanned and then imported into the document.

That said, we are moving toward a completely digital operation. With digital documents, which are usually PDFs, just open the document in Adobe Reader, Adobe Acrobat, or Bluebeam. If it has been digitally signed, a notice will pop up to announce that.

Here's an example, using Adobe Reader 11 (which is what's on my computer at home). Note that the signature panel now says the digital signature is invalid. It does indicate a digital signature, but this document was submitted in early 2021 so the authentication key has now expired. They have to be renewed periodically (probably annually??).



It didn't show as invalid when we reviewed the documents in 2021.

Here's what the actual signature page looks like. Instead of an actual signature, there's a notice that the document was digitally signed. If it's a proper digital signature, if anyone were to open and modify the document, that notice would either go away entirely, or change to indicate that the document was edited after it was signed.

 

[jar546]

This statement on a PDF is useless unless the digital signature can be verified. I see too many plans examiners see this on the PDF and think they are good to go. They are absolutely not good to go.