Smoke Alarms

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Since the area is not adjacent to bedrooms we do not need to install a co detector. I was just bring up the NC rule. It is interesting that every building inspector seems to agree this is a basement even though it is unheated and there is no communication, however if I asked if it were a shed built attached to the house with separate entrance no one thinks it would need smoke detectors. I still don't see the difference and on second thought they tend to agree.BTW- all electrical contractors are surprised it was needed. Of course it is a building code.

As jar noted, this maybe more state, or locally, driven. If it is a big deal to you, then you may want to re-present your case to the BO. As for it not communicating with the rest of the house, I tend to disagree with your assessment of comparing it to a garage. Your OP space is communicating with the upper levels, even though there is no stair case. Your mechanical appliances are creating penetrations and these communicate with the upper levels. We have plenty of unfinished basements on our NSFR permit applications, and we still require a smoke alarm to be interconnected. If these spaces were seen as a garage, we would eliminate the smoke alarm requirement, but require 1/2 GB at the walls, and 5/8 type x at the ceiling, not to mention the protection and raising of gas appliances. I don't think you really want to look at this as garage comparison with living space above. Would you then install dampers between for the 1 hour separation required? Would you assign a listed penetration assembly for your water and vent lines?

In your assessment, what is the likely hood the homeowner will store gardening and lawn supplies, or other home repair items (i.e., paint and rags/brushes) in this non-basement? If a fire starts here, what is to protect, or at the very least, warn the occupants in the floors above? In my perspective, it is a reasonable request, and at the minimum, is not something I find surprising.

Of course it is not an electrical code. Electrical code doesn't say you can't put your lights behind a GFI outlet in a basement...but usually common sense prevails. Not sure I would want to be using a skill saw in my unfinished basement and have the lights go out when the GFI trips.

 

[Dennis]

In your assessment, what is the likely hood the homeowner will store gardening and lawn supplies, or other home repair items (i.e., paint and rags/brushes) in this non-basement? If a fire starts here, what is to protect, or at the very least, warn the occupants in the floors above? In my perspective, it is a reasonable request, and at the minimum, is not something I find surprising.

I understand what you are saying and appreciate the input. The likely that a mower is stored there is not how we look at codes. We cannot anticipate what others do. I have a friend that has a crawl space under the house he is building that is 11 feet high and then tapers down to 3 or 4 feet. Would a smoke detector be required there. The likely hood of lawn movers etc is a possibility as I have seen them in crawl spaces 4' high.

How about a shed attached to the side of the house. Suppose the shed had part of a second floor above it.

I do have difficulty with this item as I am not sure the intent is being met. IMO if it is required in this space then every crawl space should have one. It seems inconsistent and based more on how the space feels. In the past I don't think anyone here would think twice if that was a dirt floor as a crawl area would have. I really think the concrete floor made them take a second look and that is not what is written. I do think the code needs a re-write as it seems subjective in part.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

Dennis,

Perhaps an exemption/exception could be provided. I am not sure what it would say. I feel comfortable using the minimum area definitions in Sections R304 & R305 (Ceiling Height) to make such a delineation on crawl spaces. In my opinion, the code does make some reasonable assumptions, or anticipates use, in an attempt to provide reasonable life-safety features.

One example would be the area under a basement stairs. The requirement to fire protect this area anticipates this area being used as a storage area (i.e., paint cans, rags, etc.). In the end, I guess it comes down to who buys what you are selling, and in this case it is the underlying assumption. What is too much, what is too little and what is just right are all valid questions to be asked. We have yet to approve a space that meets the requirements of R304 & R305 with a dirt floor.

 

[Big Mac]

You keep trying to equate this space to a garage. Is this space separated from the main portion of the houise by fire-resistive sheetrock, like a garage would be?

 

[Dennis]

You keep trying to equate this space to a garage. Is this space separated from the main portion of the houise by fire-resistive sheetrock, like a garage would be?

No it isn't and that's a good point but it is still does not communicate to any part of the house. No different than a tall crawl space. I have a friend who is doing a house now that has a ceiling 11 foot tall under the house then tapers down to 5 feet under the house. There is a small area that will be poured slab near the door and the rest of the space is dirt floor. Does this space need a smoke detector?

 

[Big Mac]

Is it vented like a crawl space? Does it have a full height door? Most crawl spaces don't. Does it have windows? Most crawl spaces don't. Some times it really boils down to what does it most closely resemble. Kind of like, I can't define porography but I know it when I see it.

 

[Dennis]

Not sure about my friends place but I am sure it has a full size door if the ceiling is 11 feet. My area has no windows nor vents and has the spray foam on the ceilings. Not heated but there is a full size door since the space has an 8' high ceiling. The ducts are all run below the joists, there is an electric furnace & water heater (electric) for the bedroom upstairs. It is not living space by any stretch of the imagination. The space is connected to the old part on one side where there are no doors to enter the existing basement-- that does have smokes.

 

[Big Mac]

Concrete Slab / Full Sized Door / No ventilation / Full height headroom / enclosed space / Utility Room / Sounds like a basement to me.

 

[Dennis]

Concrete Slab / Full Sized Door / No ventilation / Full height headroom / enclosed space / Utility Room / Sounds like a basement to me.

Okay so we have many spaces under homes that have no ventilation as they are sealed crawl spaces. What does utility room have to do with a basement? I work on many crawl spaces with furnaces and water heaters as well as well tanks and water softening systems in them. Slab does not enter into the definition

BASEMENT. That portion of a building that is partly or completely below grade (see “Story above grade”).

Does a crawl space not fit that description?What is the definition of crawl space? When does a crawl space become a basement? I have not seen it in the book. There are many areas under a home with full size doors and 8 foot ceilings without a slab that no one would have called a basement around here. For lack of another term it was called a crawl space because it was not livable space.

You cannot say a crawl space is a place where you have to crawl because that is different for everyone. Some are more limber than others. I can walk in a squat under 5' or even 4' does that mean it is not a crawl space.

Again, the job is done and passed at this point I am just trying to understand at what point I need to think about this smoke detector business as I don't see clear definitions in the code.

I am working on an old house in town that has a 8' wide by 15 ' deep space under a living area. No concrete no ventilation -- door is about 6' tall as is the ceiling. It attaches to the rest of the basement but does not communicate. I wired for a smoke detector in there just because I have no idea what they will say. When I asked the inspector he didn't think it was needed but they were not sure either as it appears to be a garden tool area under the house. See my point

Anyway, I don't want to beat a dead horse but it does seem like a better definition is needed. At least for many people I know it is confusing. I do appreciate the time and energy from you all in trying to help me-- sometimes I can't be helped as Chris will tell you.

 

[Papio Bldg Dept]

I am working on an old house in town that has a 8' wide by 15 ' deep space under a living area. No concrete no ventilation -- door is about 6' tall as is the ceiling. It attaches to the rest of the basement but does not communicate. I wired for a smoke detector in there just because I have no idea what they will say. When I asked the inspector he didn't think it was needed but they were not sure either as it appears to be a garden tool area under the house. See my point

Yes, and I think it is a valid point. Again, I think if you use the interior, habitable space requirements, you would have a valid case for not needing a smoke detector on this project, however you should be asking your AHJ for a set of guidelines by which they would define the smoke alarm requirement.

Anyway, I don't want to beat a dead horse but it does seem like a better definition is needed. At least for many people I know it is confusing. I do appreciate the time and energy from you all in trying to help me-- sometimes I can't be helped as Chris will tell you.

You may ask the AHJ to make that definition for you, and specifically request a delineation either between a crawl space and basement, or when a smoke alarm will be required. Sometimes a face to face with BCO is good for you and the Building Dept too. They might learn what it is like to try to run a business when their are no clear cut rules, or the rules keep oscillating.

 

[Dennis]

Thank you Papio. Part of the problem is living in an area where we work in 4 different inspection areas. Interestingly enough today I asked the head of the adjacent area inspection dept, generally a pretty strict area, and he said in his eyes that is a glorified crawl space and he would not have required one.

Here is another catch. Nowhere in the code does it state that the basement must communicate so is this one or 2 basements. Can a single family dwelling have more than one basement if the floor levels are the same and the areas are attached by a solid wall? They are at the same level and there are smoke detectors in the existing finished basement. So if this is one basement then I should not need one. This is a bit unusual situation as I have not run into it before so I have learned two things. The first is to think about these spaces differently and check with the ahj, and the other is that the building code is no better in its wording than the NEC :devil but that is no surprise.

Again thank you.