Tempered glass labels

[Sifu]

Clarification please. The code goes into great detail on how a tempered panel is to be labeled. Then it appears to throw it all under the bus with the final statement. I have always required etching but here where they apparently haven't been held to that I have now run across two window suppliers (may actually be the same) who when having to replace some windows a peel off label magically appears. The first time I did not permit it but the owner/builder showed me by simply not scheduling a final inspection on the addition. Now a new SF has 4 windows that must be tempered. I noted it at the framing inspection and again at final. Today at reinspection the magic label appeared. I decided to check my premise and I see the final statement, highlighted below. Also, the commentary appears to say the same thing.

The label does not provide any of the information below, it simply says TEMPERED GLASS. When you peel the paper off it looks like etching but scratches off with my fingernail, which I guess would agree with the commentary.

I am sure one of you has run up against this before. What say you?

R308.1 Identification. Except as indicated in Section R308.1.1

each pane of glazing installed in hazardous locations as defined

in Section R308.4 shall be provided with a manufacturer's designation

specifying who applied the designation, designating the

type of glass and the safety glazing standard with which it complies,

which is visible in the final installation. The designation

shall be acid etched, sandblasted, ceramic-fired, laser etched,

embossed, or be of a type which once applied cannot be removed

without being destroyed. A label shall be permitted in lieu of the

manufacturer's designation.

(commentary)

A manufacturer can identify safety glazing with a

removable paper designation, provided it is destroyed

during removal. This ensures that the designation will

not be applied to a noncomplying piece of glass.

 

[mark handler]

Thet can use a label that is destroyed during removal, after inspection. It ensures that the label will not be reapplied to a noncomplying piece of glass.

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Yes, have a handout that organic (film) coating is permitted for existing glazing on the exposed side that convert into harzardous locations owing to additions, alterations and remodeling; not allowed in areas of new construction and replacement windows; exceptions for historic buildings.

This link may help explain the different standards; http://www.glasswebsite.com/publications/reference/GANA 03-0609 - Differences Between Safety Glazing Standards.pdf

Francis

 

[rogerpa]

This has been debated at least twice at the ICC hearings. Label proponents site a problem with "bug" marked tempered stating that thieves can break it with a spring loaded nail set to gain quick entry into a building.

 

[Sifu]

So, the way the code reads and according to what you all say a removable lable is OK. What about the info on the label? TEMPERED GLASS is all it says. I don't want to be held accountable if they have applied a generic label to a standard pane. I figure if the info is on there it is at least traceable via a photo when I allow it.

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Internet search key word Safety Glazing Certification Council (SGCC) can provide a wealth of information in this regard.

Label

​

– An identification applied on a product by the manufacturer that contains the name of the manufacturer, the function and performance of the product or material, and the name and identification of an approved agency that indicates that the representative sample of the product or material has been tested and evaluated by an approved agency.

​

For the purpose of this guideline, a permanent label is defined as one that will remain permanently legible and would be destroyed in attempts to remove it from the product.

The permanent label must contain the correct SGCC® number, ANSI Z97.1-2009 and/or 16 CFR 1201 (and category), the nominal thickness, (see SGCC® Guideline G.29 for international thickness standards), the letter U or L indicating certified size and the ANSI impact class (A, B or C). (Revised 10/21/05)

With respect to the CPSC requirement that the certificate of compliance name the manufacturer, a labelmeets that requirement if it includes a suitable identification of the manufacturer of the product (unless theproduct bears a private label), in which case it shall identify the private labeler and shall also contain a codemark which shall permit the seller of such product to identify the manufacturer thereof to the purchaser upon

​

his request.

http://www.sgcc.org/documents/52.pdf

http://www.glasswebsite.com/publications/reference/LD 05-1006 - Marking and Labeling of Architectural Laminated Glass.pdf

 

[GBrackins]

Couldn't they provide you paperwork from the vendor stating that they purchased X number of tempered glass windows? Just a thought ...

 

[fatboy]

And when I come to inspect a deck addition, that now the stair location requires safety glazing, and the initial installation required it for whatever requirement, but there is no permanent "bug" .........homeowner/contractor will claim the removable label, and I say.........nope. Prove it.

 

[Francis Vineyard]

Couldn't they provide you paperwork from the vendor stating that they purchased X number of tempered glass windows? Just a thought ...

GBrackins your thought has borne fruit as fatboy's example occurred in the past; we accepted a statement on the installers letterhead giving the location, manufacturer, standard, etc. with a copy for the property owner's record because people don't want to mess up the view with a bug.

Francis

 

[mtlogcabin]

Label proponents site a problem with "bug" marked tempered stating that thieves can break it with a spring loaded nail set to gain quick entry into a building.

That has got to be the lamest reason I have ever heard. I hope the members of the committee had better reason to support the label portion in lieu of etching.

 

[pwood]

And when I come to inspect a deck addition, that now the stair location requires safety glazing, and the initial installation required it for whatever requirement, but there is no permanent "bug" .........homeowner/contractor will claim the removable label, and I say.........nope. Prove it.

i carry a hammer in my inspector bag for testing the glass. it the only real method of testing that works!

 

[SCBO1]

fatboy your on top of it,

Remod jobs, and you have to verify that existing glass is tempered?

After the existing building is inspected, then you remove the label?

Sometimes it's best to leave a good thing alone.

pc1

 

[ICE]

Internet search key word Safety Glazing Certification Council (SGCC) can provide a wealth of information in this regard.

Label

​

– An identification applied on a product by the manufacturer that contains the name of the manufacturer, the function and performance of the product or material, and the name and identification of an approved agency that indicates that the representative sample of the product or material has been tested and evaluated by an approved agency.

​

For the purpose of this guideline, a permanent label is defined as one that will remain permanently legible and would be destroyed in attempts to remove it from the product.

The permanent label must contain the correct SGCC® number, ANSI Z97.1-2009 and/or 16 CFR 1201 (and category), the nominal thickness, (see SGCC® Guideline G.29 for international thickness standards), the letter U or L indicating certified size and the ANSI impact class (A, B or C). (Revised 10/21/05)

With respect to the CPSC requirement that the certificate of compliance name the manufacturer, a label meets that requirement if it includes a suitable identification of the manufacturer of the product (unless the product bears a private label), in which case it shall identify the private labeler and shall also contain a code-mark which shall permit the seller of such product to identify the manufacturer thereof to the purchaser upon

​

his request.

http://www.sgcc.org/documents/52.pdf

http://www.glasswebsite.com/publications/reference/LD 05-1006 - Marking and Labeling of Architectural Laminated Glass.pdf

"Permanent label" says it all but I don't know anything about the Safety Glazing Certification Council and by what authority, if any, the SGCC might be quoted.

The SGCC makes better sense than this, which Sifu posted earlier:

"(commentary)

A manufacturer can identify safety glazing with a

removable paper designation, provided it is destroyed

during removal. This ensures that the designation will

not be applied to a noncomplying piece of glass."

 

[KZQuixote]

And when I come to inspect a deck addition, that now the stair location requires safety glazing, and the initial installation required it for whatever requirement, but there is no permanent "bug" .........homeowner/contractor will claim the removable label, and I say.........nope. Prove it.

I realize this may not work for many of you but one indication that a piece of glass is tempered is that the edges are ground slightly to remove the sharp corners from which a crack can propagate. Ask the builder to remove a piece of glazing bead and let you examine the edge of the glass.

Bill

 

[mjesse]

You can also do a simple test with polarized sunglasses and a smart phone

mj

 

[Sifu]

I told the owner to provide a label for each window with the proper information. If the panels are not tempered then they have committed fraud and if anything happens it will blow back on them.

 

[Doorman]

"I told the owner to provide a label for each window with the proper information."

Wouldn't the proper thing to do be, have the improperly marked glass lites removed and replace them with compliant material?

I am in commercial and industrial construction, and I realize there are differences in residential and commercial practices. In any venue I have worked in, "I don't wanna" has never been accepted by a code official as a reason for my non-compliance.

I know I'm just a doorman, but I'm just sayin...

 

[righter101]

I realize this may not work for many of you but one indication that a piece of glass is tempered is that the edges are ground slightly to remove the sharp corners from which a crack can propagate. Ask the builder to remove a piece of glazing bead and let you examine the edge of the glass.Bill

We just built a new house and the large window near the tub (about 7x5) is tempered and when you look out, the edges are a bit distorted, different from all the other non-tempered windows in the house of the same size.

The youtube video posted here was very enlightening. That, I feel, could be used as a tool for verification of compliance when you are in doubt. Although I just watched the video, I would perhaps do a bit more research that this is infact true. It is fairly eaisly testable when you have known tempered glazing as a baseline.

 

[KZQuixote]

We just built a new house and the large window near the tub (about 7x5) is tempered and when you look out, the edges are a bit distorted, different from all the other non-tempered windows in the house of the same size.The youtube video posted here was very enlightening. That, I feel, could be used as a tool for verification of compliance when you are in doubt. Although I just watched the video, I would perhaps do a bit more research that this is infact true. It is fairly eaisly testable when you have known tempered glazing as a baseline.

That's an interesting technique, I'll need to confirm it my self. Safety glazing is a recurring theme in my position.

Righter,

The distortion you're seeing is common when a relatively thin piece of glass is tempered. Window companies often say "Hey what do you expect, it's tempered." When in fact they know very well that the problem can be handled by choosing to temper a thicker piece of glass.

The process of tempering a piece of glass involves heating both surfaces to a point near melting and then cooling the pane with air jets. If I remember correctly the surfaces are in compression while the center is in tension.

Just in case you were interested: Tempered glass is more easily scratched with a razor blade than annealed glass. This is because the surface of the tempered glass is more uneven, providing high spots that can more easily be carved off with the steel edge.

Ted

 

[ICE]

I told the owner to provide a label for each window with the proper information. If the panels are not tempered then they have committed fraud and if anything happens it will blow back on them.

My wife tells me that she can make any label I want as long as it is generic paper. I wouldn't trust a court to hold you harmless based on a label. Only the manufacturer could legitimately affix a label and a letter from the manufacturer that identifies the particular windows as safety glazing should be obtained. It almost works that way for electrical equipment so it should work with windows. I say "almost that way for electrical equipment" because a manufacturer can't label in the field and as a result of that, must take the equipment back to the factory to affix a label.

The NRTL that lists windows might object and as with electrical equipment, limit field labeling to a NRTL. So sneak one in on 'em.

Beyond all of that, I wouldn't sign off on glass that I am not certain about. Not because it could blow back on me but because I know what glass can do to me.

 

[conarb]

EDTM has a meter to detect tempered glass, just require the contractor to demonstrate that the glass is tempered.

 

[ICE]

EDTM has a meter to detect tempered glass, just require the contractor to demonstrate that the glass is tempered.

The meter indicates that the glass has been strengthened but not the degree which ranges from 3,500 to 22,000 psi surface compression and includes three classifications, Heat Strengthened Glass 3500/7500, Tempered Glass >10,000, Safety Glass 15,000/22,000. It doesn't operate in a fashion that's anywhere near scientific. But hey it's cheap enough at $349.00 and as fast as these must be selling, I bet they're open to offers.

"require the contractor to demonstrate".......there ya go.......get an etched window.

I've inspected hundreds upon hundreds of windows and have never seen a code compliant removable label. I have seen windows with a sticker that says tempered in 1/4" letters. I need a flashlight and a magnifying glass to read the etching on windows.

I would be surprised if the industry abandoned etching glass in favor of a removable label in anything other than commercial applications.

 

[Sifu]

"I told the owner to provide a label for each window with the proper information."Wouldn't the proper thing to do be, have the improperly marked glass lites removed and replace them with compliant material?

I am in commercial and industrial construction, and I realize there are differences in residential and commercial practices. In any venue I have worked in, "I don't wanna" has never been accepted by a code official as a reason for my non-compliance.

I know I'm just a doorman, but I'm just sayin...

Supposedly that is what happened. On the initial inspection I cited the hazardous locations and informed them that they must be replaced with the properly tempered panels. At final I checked and found that the windows were not identified as such. Upon questioning the owner he explained that the windows were replaced but that the cleaning crew removed the "labels". I told him that was a problem becuase the windows were required to be acid etched, etc. In the back of my mind I remembered a time when an after market film was requested to be applied to a remod job and during that research the applied label issue was found. So I went back to the code and did find a provision for a label instead of the etching. Now I am in the position of being held to the letter of the code, which as I understand it would allow the label. So here I am in the position of basically calling everyone a liar simply because I suspect the label when the code seems to tell me I should accept the label. I wish there was a bonafide method to test the glass ( without breakage) but right now I don't know of one. Given my position and total lack of support in this new department, accusing someone of being dishonest would not be a good idea. I am leaving the burden of proof on the manufacturer. If he provides a label as I have directed and it is a fake then they will be guilty of fraud, and if the owner is in on it then they too will be held accountable. If the code gives the room for the application of a label I can't stand in the way. It may be better if the code didn't give this option but since they did they should expect someone to try to exploit it. The way I see it I have fulfilled the reponsibilities of my position. Ultimately it is the responsibility of the owner/contractor to comply with the codes. If they undertake efforts to deliberatly commit fraud and I have undertaken reasonable efforts to ensure compliance I can't and won't accept responsibility for it.

 

[Sifu]

I've inspected hundreds upon hundreds of windows and have never seen a code compliant removable label. I would be surprised if the industry abandoned etching glass in favor of a removable label in anything other than commercial applications.

ICE, help me out here. The code does say it is permitted does it not?

R308.1

The designation shall be acid etched, sandblasted, ceramic-fired, laser etched,

embossed, or be of a type which once applied cannot be removed

without being destroyed. A label shall be permitted in lieu of the

manufacturer's designation.