What's wrong with these manufacturers?

[wwhitney]

I'm amazed that the Access Board says the 6:1 slope never changes, because obviously it CAN change. It can be perfectly vertical, in fact. And, going the other way, the 6" horizontal toe space is a maximum dimension. Leave everything else unchanged and reduce that to 3 inches. Still compliant, but the 6:1 slope is no longer 6:1.

If I understand correctly, there's a distinction between (a) the particular spatial volume that is required to be clear of obstacles and (b) whatever possibly larger spatial volume may in fact be clear of obstacles in a given compliant installation. I would assume that in discussing this topic, the terms "knee space" and "toe space" would default to meaning (a), rather than (b).

So in the sense of (a), are there rules/conditions that would result in the changes you describe above? Or are you just referring to the sense of (b)?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[walker.t]

I have wondered if a different angle could be used as long as it didn’t project below the 6:1 slope shown in the diagram.

The ADA diagram doesn't specify an angle.

When I said “angle” I was referring to the 6:1 slope described in A117.1/ADA 306.3.4. When it says “at a rate of 1” in depth for every 6” in height” I was taking that to define a fixed slope (angle.) But as you pointed out, the knee space is allowed to be vertical so I was asking myself, “Why can’t we use a different angle as long as it doesn’t project below the angled line described in 306.3.4.?”

I'm amazed that the Access Board says the 6:1 slope never changes

The Access Board is transparent enough to tell us that “Guidance documents lack the force and effect of law” so I’d say that means they are limited in their ability to provide authoritative interpretations.

U.S. Access Board - Guidance Documents

The U.S. Access Board is a federal agency that promotes equality for people with disabilities through leadership in accessible design and the development of accessibility guidelines and standards for the built environment, transportation, communication, medical diagnostic equipment, and...

www.access-board.gov

So, if they say something and you think they’re wrong, they just might be. But when I say that I start to think, “If that’s the case, then how do I know if any given statement from them is reliable?”

 

[Jean Tessmer-HI]

Yike, I want to share this with you about the ANSI A117.1. You have to think about what element that person with a disability is trying to use. If you slide the sink back to allow more knee space, you take way the ability to use the fixture or element they want to use. Its more about opportunity. You can experiment with this yourself. Sit in a chair scoot up to a sink and even if the interior of the bowl is within 2 inches from the leading edge you will see what it takes. See attached.

 

[Jean Tessmer-HI]

Yike, I want to share this with you about the ANSI A117.1. You have to think about what element that person with a disability is trying to use. If you slide the sink back to allow more knee space, you take way the ability to use the fixture or element they want to use. Its more about opportunity. You can experiment with this yourself. Sit in a chair scoot u

I'm amazed that the Access Board says the 6:1 slope never changes, because obviously it CAN change. It can be perfectly vertical, in fact. And, going the other way, the 6" horizontal toe space is a maximum dimension. Leave everything else unchanged and reduce that to 3 inches. Still compliant, but the 6:1 slope is no longer 6:1.

p to a sink and even if the interior of the bowl is within 2 inches from the leading edge you will see what it takes. See attached.

Yankee,
The US Access Board adopted the ANSI Standard and writes the ADA guidelines for the DOJ to use to enforce the law....

 

[Jean Tessmer-HI]

You are both correct, and also, where did they get that knee clearance slope from? It wasn't from the 2010 ADA Standards:

View attachment 13389


This is more like it:

View attachment 13390

Yikes, knee clearance came from the University of Illinois - Urbana Champaign starting in 1945. In 1960 their standards were granted the ASA (or ANSI) standard designation A-117.1. This was after 15 years of research which continued on up to 1986 at which point the Federal Government adopted it as their own. I do have copies of the original research documents from the U of I and was also able to talk to many of the researchers and Dr. Nugent before he passed away. The research now has a historical reliability of over 60 years and has proven repeatability on the ground by individuals with disabilities who say it works for them. The US Access Board did not author or write the ANSI A-117.1 standard. They adopted it. I also wondered where it all came from.

 

[Builder Bob]

I'm trying to train our staff not rely on manufacturers when their literature claims a product is ADA compliant, but to closely examine and verify for themselves.

Here's a cut sheet I came across today from a major fixture manufacturer, with an illustration showing how their lavatory is ADA compliant.
My staff was ready to approve, based on the statement in the lower right corner. Can you tell me what they may be missing here?

View attachment 13388

P Trap......, Sink Depth