Would you allow this interlock kit?

[jwelectric]

If 590 trumps all of the listing and labeling concerns most of your argument goes away.

I think you may have said that backwards. During the time period that temporary is being used the following would apply. Read the commentary after the last section of this section. 590.3 Time Constraints.

(A) During the Period of Construction. Temporary electric power and lighting installations shall be permitted during the period of construction, remodeling, maintenance, repair, or demolition of buildings, structures, equipment, or similar activities.

(B) 90 Days. Temporary electric power and lighting installations shall be permitted for a period not to exceed 90 days for holiday decorative lighting and similar purposes.

Commentary- The 90-day time limit applies only to temporary electrical installations associated with holiday displays. Construction and emergency and test temporary wiring installations are not bound by this time limit.

© Emergencies and Tests. Temporary electric power and lighting installations shall be permitted during emergencies and for tests, experiments, and developmental work.

(D) Removal. Temporary wiring shall be removed immediately upon completion of construction or purpose for which the wiring was installed.

Commentary- Because temporary wiring installations may not meet all of the requirements for a permanent installation due to the modifications permitted by Article 590, all temporary wiring not only must be disconnected but also removed from the building, structure, or other location of installation.

 

[gfretwell]

Read the instructions of ANY furnace blower or submersible well pump and tell us about the one that allows cord and plug. If you don't install per instructions it is a 110.3 violation unless 590 trumps 110.3

If 110.3 is trumped then I don't care about listing.

If I can ignore listing then I can use an unlisted Home Depot Generator.

If I lift the bond in the generator it is a non-SDS 250.34(A)(1).

You have positively isolated the generator from the grid with the interlock "transfer device"

You have already pointed out you can use cords for just about anything you want under 590.

What have I forgotten?

 

[jwelectric]

Read the instructions of ANY furnace blower or submersible well pump and tell us about the one that allows cord and plug. If you don't install per instructions it is a 110.3 violation unless 590 trumps 110.3

Show me in any instructions that is included in the listing of a well pump or furnace where it says it can’t be connected by cord and plug.Yes in an emergency cords can be used with a standalone generator that is being used as temporary power as outlined in 590.

If 110.3 is trumped then I don't care about listing.

We are not playing cards here we are talking about the NEC. The listing of the equipment is not altered in any way. You don’t have to use a cord and plug on either. Did you read how I connected my well. I did not put a cord cap on the well. I connected the cord to the disconnect at the well just as any branch circuit permanently installed.

If I can ignore listing then I can use an unlisted Home Depot Generator.

Not the listing but cords are allowed in an emergency

If I lift the bond in the generator it is a non-SDS 250.34(A)(1).

250.34 Portable and Vehicle-Mounted Generators.

(A) Portable Generators. The frame of a portable generator shall not be required to be connected to a grounding electrode as defined in 250.52 for a system supplied by the generator under the following conditions: See related ROP

(1) The generator supplies only equipment mounted on the generator, cord-and-plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the generator, or both, and

(2) The normally non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment and the equipment grounding conductor terminals of the receptacles are connected to the generator frame.

When you lift the neutral from the frame of the generator you just took away you ground fault current path for those devices on that generator.

You have positively isolated the generator from the grid with the interlock "transfer device"

It is an interlock not a transfer as outlined in 702

You have already pointed out you can use cords for just about anything you want under 590. What have I forgotten?

Yes, the proper way to use a stand-alone generator. :banghd

 

[jwelectric]

TRUMP just what does that mean?

590.4For the purposes of this section, Type NM and Type NMC cables shall be permitted to be used in any dwelling, building, or structure without any height limitation or limitation by building construction type and without concealment within walls, floors, or ceilings.

Does this statement trump anything or is it an alternate method? Wait let’s look at the exception.

Exception: Branch circuits installed for the purposes specified in 590.3(B) or 590.3© shall be permitted to be run as single insulated conductors.

Trump, just what does that mean? Is this trumping anything or is it an alternate method for temporary circuits. It sure doesn’t trump anything. Look at the second section in subpart A. This is just an alternate method for temporary and emergencies.

 

[jwelectric]

During a temporary installation such as in an emergency does not dismiss the listing of any piece of equipment being used. What 590 does is give an alternate method of the feeders and branch circuits that supply these appliances and equipment.

I keep hearing cord and plug. It makes me wonder if all electricians and electrical inspectors have shut down their brain in a manner that it just don’t function any longer or if the mind set of inspectors has become so involved in having to find some reason to turn down a job to show everyone that they are doing their job that we have lost sight of what is going on. I have heard all my life that in order to become an electrician that you first have to get a job as a painter and burn your brain up sniffing paint thinner.

There are two section found in the NEC that address the use of generators during a power failure. The one that everyone thinks of is 702 but when it comes to these small stand-alone generators and we start trying to circumvent the rules in 702 to find some way to connect them to our homes.

In order to use one of these small stand-alone generators the rules found in 590 makes their use easy and cheap. They don’t get connected to the premises wiring so no need for a transfer switch of any kind either approved for this generator or not. Article 590 addresses temporary and emergency power and allows alternate methods for connecting a generator to our equipment.

If we are going to be in the electrical trade either as electricians or inspectors pray tell me why we don’t use the NEC to our advantage instead of trying to find some way to circumvent the rules set forth for our safety. When I hear someone make the statement, “well that is safer than the other” I wonder just how much safer it is. Is it still dangerous? Is it still unsafe? Safer??????????? I am standing in a bath tub filled with gasoline striking matches. I would be safer outside with the wind blowing wouldn’t I. It might blow out the match.

Can someone please tell me why they think that the only way to connect a well or furnace to a stand-alone generator is by cord and plug.

 

[gfretwell]

Yes that JW guy just said it quoting 250.34(1) "The generator supplies only equipment mounted on the generator, cord-and-plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the generator, or both."

You connected your pump with a cord and plug, it was just a long cord. (unless you just shoved the stripped ends of the Romex into the receptacle)

You are simply ignoring the NEC selectively to meet your needs ... in a slightly different way.

 

[jwelectric]

Yes that JW guy just said it quoting 250.34(1) "The generator supplies only equipment mounted on the generator, cord-and-plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the generator, or both."

You connected your pump with a cord and plug, it was just a long cord. (unless you just shoved the stripped ends of the Romex into the receptacle)

You are simply ignoring the NEC selectively to meet your needs ... in a slightly different way.

I think you are confusing what that fellow named JW was quoting from the NEC because you want to do it your way and won’t listen when JW quotes the code. I think you are sold on the idea that it is your way or no way. 590.3 © Emergencies and Tests. Temporary electric power and lighting installations shall be permitted during emergencies and for tests, experiments, and developmental work.

590.4© Branch Circuits. All branch circuits shall originate in an approved power outlet, switchboard or panelboard, motor control center, or fused switch enclosure. Conductors shall be permitted within cable assemblies or within multiconductor cord or cable of a type identified in Table 400.4 for hard usage or extra-hard usage

590.4(I) Termination(s) at Devices. Flexible cords and cables entering enclosures containing devices requiring termination shall be secured to the box with fittings designed for the purpose

250.34(A)(1) is thereby complied with as the well pump or the furnace would now be supplied by the receptacle on the frame of the generator and would not have an end cap installed on the well or furnace but instead would have the cord terminated in the required disconnect.

 

[jwelectric]

Yes that JW guy just said it quoting 250.34(1) "The generator supplies only equipment mounted on the generator, cord-and-plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the generator, or both."You connected your pump with a cord and plug, it was just a long cord. (unless you just shoved the stripped ends of the Romex into the receptacle)

You are simply ignoring the NEC selectively to meet your needs ... in a slightly different way.

I think you are confusing what that fellow named JW was quoting from the NEC because you want to do it your way and won’t listen when JW quotes the code. I think you are sold on the idea that it is your way or no way. 590.3 © Emergencies and Tests. Temporary electric power and lighting installations shall be permitted during emergencies and for tests, experiments, and developmental work.

590.4© Branch Circuits. All branch circuits shall originate in an approved power outlet, switchboard or panelboard, motor control center, or fused switch enclosure. Conductors shall be permitted within cable assemblies or within multiconductor cord or cable of a type identified in Table 400.4 for hard usage or extra-hard usage

590.4(I) Termination(s) at Devices. Flexible cords and cables entering enclosures containing devices requiring termination shall be secured to the box with fittings designed for the purpose

250.34(A)(1) is thereby complied with as the well pump or the furnace would now be supplied by the receptacle on the frame of the generator and would not have an end cap installed on the well or furnace but instead would have the cord terminated in the required disconnect.

I think that I need to start previewing instead of just posting.

 

[gfretwell]

I guarantee you that if you look at other posts about wiring pumps and furnaces you will see AHJs that are just as vehement that these are not listed for cord and plug connection, no matter how long the cord is or whether it is temporary. The installation instructions say nothing about emergency connections.

If I can just declare an emergency and ignore 110.3, most of your argument goes away.

I will say it one more time. My point is there is a hole in the NEC that should be addressed, one way or another. It is clear U/L has listed this interlock as a transfer device, all you need to do is look at the Schnider catalog to see that. All we are arging about is which kind of generator is it suitable for. If you can ignore the listing of your pump, I can ignore the fact that my Home Depot generator is not listed. Both are article 110 violations but both are temporary installations.

 

[jwelectric]

I guarantee you that if you look at other posts about wiring pumps and furnaces you will see AHJs that are just as vehement that these are not listed for cord and plug connection, no matter how long the cord is or whether it is temporary. The installation instructions say nothing about emergency connections.

The NEC does. It is very clear that this Article address every issue that you have brought up and answers it very clearly.

If I can just declare an emergency and ignore 110.3, most of your argument goes away.

I am not arguing anything I am trying to get you to read the book you say you are enforcing.

I will say it one more time. My point is there is a hole in the NEC that should be addressed, one way or another.

And if you would open your mind just a little to the suggestions found in the NEC you can clearly see that there is no hole.

It is clear U/L has listed this interlock as a transfer device, all you need to do is look at the Schnider catalog to see that. All we are arging about is which kind of generator is it suitable for.

Once again I am not arguing I am only quoting code that anyone who owns one can read.

If you can ignore the listing of your pump, I can ignore the fact that my Home Depot generator is not listed.

And Pray tell me just how any listing is being violated. Please I beseech you to show me just how this listing is violated.

Both are article 110 violations but both are temporary installations.

Maybe some on this site can use an unlisted generator. That would be a state thing like here in NC and I am sure Fl. Anything connected to a dwelling is required to be listed.

 

[gfretwell]

I give up, you win. All of you all, just put a cord and plug connection on your furnace and well pump. Plug it into some convenient outlet when the power is on and use your generator if it is off. JW says it is OK. I imagine you can hook your water heater up like this too.

View attachment 621

View attachment 621

/monthly_2012_12/water_heater.jpg.425e282e28b19bca85ba851fc7036cca.jpg

 

[jwelectric]

I give up, you win. All of you all, just put a cord and plug connection on your furnace and well pump. Plug it into some convenient outlet when the power is on and use your generator if it is off. JW says it is OK.

I imagine you can hook your water heater up like this too.

View attachment 1503

If you are saying this is wrong it would be nice if you backed it up with some sort of quote of some kind.If you are going to use 110.3(B) please post the listing requirements.

I will say that to connect the ends of a SJO cord to the conductors of the unit in the provided junction box on the appliance and then plug that cord into a receptacle of a portable generator for a period of no more than 90 days would not be a code violation nor a violation of any listing of the appliance. This I have already quoted from Article 590 of the NEC.

 

[Builder Bob]

Maybe JW could get off of his high horse and share his knowledge without blasting everybody out of the water that doesn't agree with him......

As far as any response from JW goes for this post, I am not going to respond to it nor acknowledge it. He isn't worth my time to talk to if he can't be more open minded

 

[jar546]

Would you allow this interlock kit?

I am actually lost at this time and lost track of where the disagreement is. This is a passionate subject and I would love to submit this to the NFPA for a written opinion.

Can we paraphrase and let me know where the actual disagreement is?

Thanks!!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[jar546]

Would you allow this interlock kit?

Btw, is that water heater listed for cord and plug connection and what nema connector is that?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

 

[jwelectric]

Maybe JW could get off of his high horse and share his knowledge without blasting everybody out of the water that doesn't agree with him......

I could care less if anyone agrees with me but when you disagree with the NEC everyone should take issue especially if you claim to be a code enforcement official. The problem is not what is printed in the code book but the acceptance of the fact against ones belief. The inability to learn just because we think we are the AHJ and already know everything that has to been known. Just because it is listed in no way means that it is being used in the manner for which it was listed.

As far as any response from JW goes for this post, I am not going to respond to it nor acknowledge it. He isn't worth my time to talk to if he can't be more open minded

What is an oxymoron?Is what you meant to say was unless I agree with the false pretense of most people’s standard of practice weather true or false?

Just because something is listed in no way means that it is compliant in every installation such as the interlock device in question. Here is a good case of using all Listed products and not having a code compliant installation.

Everything in this picture is listed so what is the problem? Could it be that it is not being used in the manner for which it was listed?

Oh wait a minute, I saw a picture posted on the internet so it must be okay.

 

[raider1]

I am actually lost at this time and lost track of where the disagreement is. This is a passionate subject and I would love to submit this to the NFPA for a written opinion.Can we paraphrase and let me know where the actual disagreement is?

Thanks!!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

Not very likely that you will get a written interpretation from NFPA. You have to fill out a request and submit it to them.

You could get a personal opinion from a member of a code making panel, have you contacted anyone?

Chris

 

[jwelectric]

I am actually lost at this time and lost track of where the disagreement is. This is a passionate subject and I would love to submit this to the NFPA for a written opinion.Can we paraphrase and let me know where the actual disagreement is?

Thanks!!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

The question was asked about using one of those interlocks kits as a transfer switch. From there it escalated into a discussion concerning the use of the stand-alone type of generator.According to UL and the NEC these type generators cannot be connected to the premises wiring of a building except as a SDS. This UL standard was mandated in early 2000 if memory serves me correctly. I started teaching Inspector classes using the 1999 cycle and in 250.34 of that cycle the FPN referred to the SDS section for the method of connecting astand-alone generator to the premises wiring. This is not something new.

There is verbiage found in 590.6 of the 2011 NEC which will eliminate the use of these generators for such as the GFCI device that is now required to be installed and will open if connected as a non-SDS.

Wonder what the manufacturer of that interlock device will publish now.

Another problem is that when the words “portable generator” is spoken people instantly think of the small stand-alone generators. Their brain is not open enough to the fact that this type of generator is just one of many different types of portable generators.

Being that the use of interlock devices was pictured on the internet a lot of folks seem to think that this is supposed to be the methods used. They stand pat on the fact that the manufacturer of the products says their product is listed and refuse to educate their self on the codes. They blindly follow the words of a manufacturer instead of reading and studying the codes their self to see what the code mandates.

As with this thread every excuse that can be thought of will arise to back their statement but nothing in adopted codes. Some have kept saying that things such as well pumps and furnaces are not listed for cord and plug but have posted nothing to back their statement. Instead they keeps asking that someone post where they are listed for cord and plug. I have said that the time of use is allowed by Article 590.

Appliances such as discussed in this thread are not tested for cord and plug therefore there will be no listing either way. They are not forbidden in some circumstances such as outlined in 590 from being cord and plug connected. In 590 we are addressing unusual circumstances such as temporary or emergency uses. In that article permission is given to use cords for appliances such as furnace and well pumps.

There is nothing in the listing that says what wiring method is to be used as long as it complies with the codes adopted in that jurisdiction.

Another problem with the installation requirements found in the listing and labeling of appliances is that a lot of folks think these instructions are found in the package or on the manufacturer’s web site which again is untrue. The installation instructions will be found at the NTRL that listed the appliance such as the UL White Book. The link that someone posted showing the installation of one of these interlocks also had a generator and cord in the picture and in their minds they think that this is some sort of code or something. The sad part is these same folks are getting paid for my safety and have no clue at all of what they are doing.

 

[raider1]

FWIW here is my opinion of the issue.

1. I would approve the interlock kit for connection of a non-SDS generator only.

2. To connect a portable generator to supply a building premise wiring system you would need to use a transfer switch that also switched the neutral and ground and bond the generator in accordance with 250.30.

Chris

 

[jwelectric]

Not very likely that you will get a written interpretation from NFPA. You have to fill out a request and submit it to them. You could get a personal opinion from a member of a code making panel, have you contacted anyone? Chris

This is true. In order to get an interpretation the request must be ask in a question that can be answered with one word, yes or no. Anything else will be the opinion of the author. This is true no matter who is asked simply because the only thing that matters is the adopted codes in your area.

I have attended several IAEI meeting over the past three years where the questions on stand-alone generators have been asked. At each meeting the panel member, most who are on one code panel or the other, had the same answer, only as a SDS. At no time did any other panel member disagree.

 

[raider1]

This is true. In order to get an interpretation the request must be ask in a question that can be answered with one word, yes or no. Anything else will be the opinion of the author. This is true no matter who is asked simply because the only thing that matters is the adopted codes in your area. I have attended several IAEI meeting over the past three years where the questions on stand-alone generators have been asked. At each meeting the panel member, most who are on one code panel or the other, had the same answer, only as a SDS. At no time did any other panel member disagree.

Which panels were represented? Just curious.

Again, I agree that an Engine Generator for Portable Use is built as a SDS and must be installed as one if you are to connect it to a buildings premise wiring system.

Chris

 

[jwelectric]

Which panels were represented? Just curious.Again, I agree that an Engine Generator for Portable Use is built as a SDS and must be installed as one if you are to connect it to a buildings premise wiring system.

Chris

We all know the famous Mark Ode of UL who has sit on so many of the NFPA code panels that it would take a long time to mention. He was at the SS in Tenn. And this question came up to wit he talked about UL FTCN. I took the microphone and asked point blank about the stand-alone generators and he held his ground that the only way to connect one to a building was as a SDS. The first time I heard him talk about it was at the NC Elec. Institute in Raleigh, NC.

At the NC Institute on the discussion panel with Mark was John Minick with NEMA and Mark Early with NFPA. Present at all three of these meetings was Jimmy Carpenter past CEO of IAEI and sits on many of the CMPs. Early and Carpenter both sit on the TCC.

Jeff Fecteau also of UL was at the fall meeting of the NC IAEI in Cherokee, NC where this subject was once again talked about and again UL FTCN was mentioned.

Anyone attending one of these seminars knows how they work with the discussion panels that answer questions posed to them and most of these people travel all over the US doing these educational programs. They have a career called the NEC no matter who gives them their pay check. They are the heart of the code making process. Most can be contacted by email through the organization that they work for. I email them all the time.

 

[gfretwell]

JW still has not said how the average homeowner gets that cord connected to his well pump temporarily as per 590 . Does he try to find an electrician in a hurricane or is he out there doing it himself, regardless of qualifications.

 

[jwelectric]

JW still has not said how the average homeowner gets that cord connected to his well pump temporarily as per 590 . Does he try to find an electrician in a hurricane or is he out there doing it himself, regardless of qualifications.

Mr. Fretwell, do you realize what you are saying sometimes when you post or do you just post what comes to mind?First it wouldn’t make any difference if it was the home owner, his mother, the next door neighbor or an electrician or even you I don’t think that either of these folks would get out in a hurricane to even start the generator and if they did it wouldn’t matter which method was used to connect it to the well it is not approved to be used in that weather.

Come on now stop with the silly post and try as hard as you can to support you listing comments.