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Absolutely NO EXCUSE ICC, Really!

CowboyRR: Keep the thoughts flowing! We must keep an open mind and we need to hold ICC accountable for the actions or lack there of.

I have mixed thoughts on the Denver trip. I am grateful for those of us that could make the trip. I have held back on any comment regarding those who attended and the presence of an IT person from ICC other then to welcome him. Keep in mind that corrections at ICC will not come if there is no dialogue between us.
 
The fact that ICC made an apology at all was one of the steps in accountability. Making good on their promises will be another. Time will tell. I will give them that much.

Your mileage may vary.
 
CowboyRR said:
I'm not of the mind to invest any more time with ICC leaders until they demonstrate accountablility for their actions. I don't think they regret their actions to pull the plug on the old BBS one bit - but they are very sorry that nobody plays on their website. Same as people that are not sorry for wrongdoing when they are caught - they're just sorry that they got caught. The BBS is just one of many instances like this. I still believe the membership is the lifeblood of the org. but the leaders are not going to change until the membership holds them accountable. Meeting with them to launch a new site is not about accountability. I will just keep my thoughts to myself from now on. Best of luck.
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CowboyRR: Really, you shouldn't keep your thoughts to yourself on these topics. Even in the slightest.

Now, according to brudgers, I'm just an IT guy stirring up the pot to get everyone jacked for what ICC is trying to do. First, I am not in IT. Second, I am not saying anything that isn't true or creating any false sense of anticipation about what we all are trying to do here.

The idea here is to communicate effectively with one another. Those at Denver received a first hand experience at a new effort to not simply reach out by pushing products on customers and members, but reach out to simply listen and have a conversation. So, please, don't hold back your comments or keep them to yourself.

You can rip ICC or even me as much as you want. That is more than ok. I welcome it. Sometimes negative criticism is the best criticism because then we all know what to do in order to fix these things. I simply ask that you arrive at logical conclusion and keep my mother out of your negative comments. She truly is a nice lady.

Anyway, ladies and gentle men, I highly recommend you continue to ask ICC to holds itself accountable for its actions. We ask that of ourselves here, with this group working on the new BB.
 
IT, Webmaster, PR, whatever it is, you're here to serve the ICC's interests not to discuss the code.

Understand that I'm not being critical of you as a person, but I am critical of what your job entails.

Creating buzz about the ICC's upcoming BB and leveraging social media to gain traction with the members of this site.

It's economically rational, but it isn't about supporting this board.
 
V767 said:
You can rip ICC or even me as much as you want. That is more than ok. I welcome it. Sometimes negative criticism is the best criticism because then we all know what to do in order to fix these things. I simply ask that you arrive at logical conclusion and keep my mother out of your negative comments. She truly is a nice lady. Anyway, ladies and gentle men, I highly recommend you continue to ask ICC to holds itself accountable for its actions. We ask that of ourselves here, with this group working on the new BB.
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If one believes the members are the lifeblood of the org. then ripping the org. is the same as ripping the members. The ICC leaders have already proven that they are not going to be accountable. So the question is when will the members force them to be accountable? How much more does it take? Professionals operating at such high levels in an "International" organization should not have to be asked to be held accountable - it should exist inherent to their professional integrity and credibility. I know my criticism reads negatively - but there is plenty of constructive feedback here that ICC leaders need to consider. My experience is that they are both far too defensive and far too arrogant to do that. I don't know you. You seem to be new to the org. Best of luck to you with adjusting the attitudes amongst the ICC leaders.
 
CowboyRR said:
If one believes the members are the lifeblood of the org. then ripping the org. is the same as ripping the members. The ICC leaders have already proven that they are not going to be accountable. So the question is when will the members force them to be accountable? How much more does it take? Professionals operating at such high levels in an "International" organization should not have to be asked to be held accountable - it should exist inherent to their professional integrity and credibility. I know my criticism reads negatively - but there is plenty of constructive feedback here that ICC leaders need to consider. My experience is that they are both far too defensive and far too arrogant to do that. I don't know you. You seem to be new to the org. Best of luck to you with adjusting the attitudes amongst the ICC leaders.
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CowboyRR, your criticism is far from negative. Please continue to post things of this nature, it is always wanted on this end, I can assure you.

V767
 
brudgers said:
IT, Webmaster, PR, whatever it is, you're here to serve the ICC's interests not to discuss the code.Understand that I'm not being critical of you as a person, but I am critical of what your job entails.

Creating buzz about the ICC's upcoming BB and leveraging social media to gain traction with the members of this site.

It's economically rational, but it isn't about supporting this board.
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brudgers, I understand you are not criticizing me as a person, and vice versa, as I hope it is already known. Thanks for the clarification. Oh, and I would love to discuss the code, I may take a little bit of time to, uh, "gain another perspective," from a fellow ICC staffer ;p. I will be honest, I am new to ICC and the code and code development process is something I continually wrapping my head around.

This board is something I don't want to fail, if that is what you are implying about me being on here as opposed to other ICC staff.

I said it before in Denver, I don't want ICC' BB to be the only discussion board people use. In the Internet age, it is ridiculous to think that people only go to one place to get everything they want. This board is valuable asset to the industry, which includes ICC. However, ICC can help in expanding the general knowledge of those inside and outside the industry by adding its own discussion board to the current website.

The benefit will be for both and all users.

Anyway, I appreciate the insight. Any and all questions or comments are welcome.

V767
 
Why does this board need an ICC controlled knock off seeking to monetize building code discussion?

If the concern was really code discussion, you'd have vBulletin up and running at an ICC subdomain.

The reason you can't is that the ICC BB is about branding.

Iterative development is fast.

Marketing takes more time.
 
brudgers said:
Why does this board need an ICC controlled knock off seeking to monetize building code discussion?If the concern was really code discussion, you'd have vBulletin up and running at an ICC subdomain.

The reason you can't is that the ICC BB is about branding.

Iterative development is fast.

Marketing takes more time.
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Pretty much what I said in the other thread.. before the Denver meeting. I'm not sure what the deal is. vB is rock solid.

I am not sure it is all ICC's doing, as there is no money to be made by a www firm if all they have to do is install a bulletin board in 2 hours time. Much more money to be made vetting out a MS piece of garbage. I would also bet money that the firm is MS-centric, touting their MSCE titles. Unix+mysql+vB == solid. But first you need staff that knows how to use a command line. Now, I could be wrong. But I doubt it.

ICC's website definitely needs some help. It is pretty horrible and I wish the www firm all the best of luck fixing it.

As for me, vB is what all of the sites I visit use. Using anything else is just. Annoying.
 
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For the ICC the BB is just something on a checklist.

They had one, they figured one is as good as another so they made a new one.

Some MBA said, "Hey we're letting non-members use this asset, and that additional bandwidth is costing us $100/a month. Furthermore, providing free services to the public dilutes the brand. Put the BB behind a paywall!"

So they did.

They torqued off users, which are valuable.

They torqued off members, which are not only valuable but provide revenue.

But worst of all, they torqued off evangelists and lost their community (not that the even recognized they had one, let alone valued it).

I was on the ICC board because someone I've known for years turned me on to it.

Now he turns people onto this board.

As do I.

V767 is here because to save $100/month (or whatever it was) the ICC gave up significant editorial control over the community.

The ability to ban IP's, delete posts, and lock threads is a powerful tool for stifling dissent.

He's conducting damage control and trying to create buzz around the new kinder gentler ICC.

But it's all about the brand not the community.

The new board will be like Lufkin, the only people who will move there are from there.
 
brudgers said:
For the ICC the BB is just something on a checklist.They had one, they figured one is as good as another so they made a new one.

Some MBA said, "Hey we're letting non-members use this asset, and that additional bandwidth is costing us $100/a month. Furthermore, providing free services to the public dilutes the brand. Put the BB behind a paywall!"

So they did.

They torqued off users, which are valuable.

They torqued off members, which are not only valuable but provide revenue.

But worst of all, they torqued off evangelists and lost their community (not that the even recognized they had one, let alone valued it).

I was on the ICC board because someone I've known for years turned me on to it.

Now he turns people onto this board.

As do I.

V767 is here because to save $100/month (or whatever it was) the ICC gave up significant editorial control over the community.

The ability to ban IP's, delete posts, and lock threads is a powerful tool for stifling dissent.

He's conducting damage control and trying to create buzz around the new kinder gentler ICC.

But it's all about the brand not the community.

The new board will be like Lufkin, the only people who will move there are from there.
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This is truly the reality of the situation, like it or not. The most recent events showing interest, including Denver was about "appeasing" or putting out a small campfire that someone walked away from and forgot about. "Oops, we have bigger fish to fry.."
 
Jeff: I agree as usual! However, V767 is here to debate issues. Now that is a big start! We need to focus on issues and not attack the messenger. If we truly want change at ICC we need to send back clear issues.

I for one don't believe things will change, but am willing to listen.
 
V767 said:
CowboyRR, your criticism is far from negative. Please continue to post things of this nature, it is always wanted on this end, I can assure you. V767
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Criticism is of no value if ICC does not choose to act. Have the ICC leadership demonstrate some accountability for their actions and maybe you'll get some more creative input. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.
 
brudgers said:
For the ICC the BB is just something on a checklist.They had one, they figured one is as good as another so they made a new one.

Some MBA said, "Hey we're letting non-members use this asset, and that additional bandwidth is costing us $100/a month. Furthermore, providing free services to the public dilutes the brand. Put the BB behind a paywall!"

So they did.

They torqued off users, which are valuable.

They torqued off members, which are not only valuable but provide revenue.

But worst of all, they torqued off evangelists and lost their community (not that the even recognized they had one, let alone valued it).

I was on the ICC board because someone I've known for years turned me on to it.

Now he turns people onto this board.

As do I.

V767 is here because to save $100/month (or whatever it was) the ICC gave up significant editorial control over the community.

The ability to ban IP's, delete posts, and lock threads is a powerful tool for stifling dissent.

He's conducting damage control and trying to create buzz around the new kinder gentler ICC.

But it's all about the brand not the community.

The new board will be like Lufkin, the only people who will move there are from there.
Click to expand...
+ 1 Meeellllionnn
 
CowboyRR said:
Criticism is of no value if ICC does not choose to act. Have the ICC leadership demonstrate some accountability for their actions and maybe you'll get some more creative input. I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for it.
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CowboyRR: Can't disagree with you on that front.

And keep breathing, that is just a good health habit.

Thanks.

V767
 
brudgers said:
For the ICC the BB is just something on a checklist.They had one, they figured one is as good as another so they made a new one.

Some MBA said, "Hey we're letting non-members use this asset, and that additional bandwidth is costing us $100/a month. Furthermore, providing free services to the public dilutes the brand. Put the BB behind a paywall!"

So they did.

They torqued off users, which are valuable.

They torqued off members, which are not only valuable but provide revenue.

But worst of all, they torqued off evangelists and lost their community (not that the even recognized they had one, let alone valued it).

I was on the ICC board because someone I've known for years turned me on to it.

Now he turns people onto this board.

As do I.

V767 is here because to save $100/month (or whatever it was) the ICC gave up significant editorial control over the community.

The ability to ban IP's, delete posts, and lock threads is a powerful tool for stifling dissent.

He's conducting damage control and trying to create buzz around the new kinder gentler ICC.

But it's all about the brand not the community.

The new board will be like Lufkin, the only people who will move there are from there.
Click to expand...
brudgers: You make valid points, none of which I can truly muster an argument against.

I have briefly mentioned the new BB coming up, but I am more inclined to hear what you are saying now, as opposed to selling you on something coming up in the future.

You will see when the BB is up (or in beta) and how it will be ran, whether it is something you wish to invest your time into or not. Simple as that.

Mistakes were made and a new team is on board attempting to make the old BB (exclude the COIs for now) better than it was. Technologically it is far more difficult than flipping a switch. And we don't want the old board back, we all want a better, more user friendly and more open discussion forum.

Anyway, like I said, you can see it for yourself when it is up and running and decide if it is something you find worth your while.

Thanks.

V767
 
jar546 said:
This is truly the reality of the situation, like it or not. The most recent events showing interest, including Denver was about "appeasing" or putting out a small campfire that someone walked away from and forgot about. "Oops, we have bigger fish to fry.."
Click to expand...
Jeff, I'm willing to listen. I see a lot wrong with the cow. Perhaps mad cow disease? I'll say it out straight: If the cow screws this one up (Denver) they will loose more than they know. They will have 20 or so X-members preaching to the congregation on the evils of the cow.

 
From what I see Jeff is feeling like he is being shafted just a bit because he went way beyond the call of duty for the members of the old ICC bb by creating this bb and now ICC is using this board to get information on how to make the ICC forum better.

Jeff has put in numerous hours, along with others, to make a home for all the code professionals and now we are using "our" forum to make ICC forum compete with this one. I feel like both can excell however ICC should work on their problems then let specific attendees "test" the waters away from this forum.

Maybe the comments should be emailed or PM to those who were at Denver and forward them on to Kyle.

Just my opinion here.
 
V767 said:
brudgers: You make valid points, none of which I can truly muster an argument against. I have briefly mentioned the new BB coming up, but I am more inclined to hear what you are saying now, as opposed to selling you on something coming up in the future.

You will see when the BB is up (or in beta) and how it will be ran, whether it is something you wish to invest your time into or not. Simple as that.

Mistakes were made and a new team is on board attempting to make the old BB (exclude the COIs for now) better than it was. Technologically it is far more difficult than flipping a switch. And we don't want the old board back, we all want a better, more user friendly and more open discussion forum.

Anyway, like I said, you can see it for yourself when it is up and running and decide if it is something you find worth your while.

Thanks.

V767
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As I said earlier, the beta could be up this afternoon.

All it takes is a credit card.

In fact, I take Paypal.
 
brudgers said:
As I said earlier, the beta could be up this afternoon.All it takes is a credit card.

In fact, I take Paypal.
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I appreciate the offer, but we do have people constructing the beta and we should have a definitive schedule on the paper, beta and soft launch soon.

Besides, I don't control the money. I am basically the worst person to talk to in an attempt to be hired for work. Still, a valiant effort.

Anyway, once I have the schedule, you all will be the first to know. Well, other than me, because I will have it before you. So, you all will be the second to know.

Thanks.

V767
 
RJJ said:
Jeff: I agree as usual! However, V767 is here to debate issues. Now that is a big start! We need to focus on issues and not attack the messenger. If we truly want change at ICC we need to send back clear issues. I for one don't believe things will change, but am willing to listen.
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The ICC isn't here on the board to make peace.

They are announcing an intent to mobilize their substantial resources to steal market share from this board.

There's a Gantt chart, and his joining the board is one of its milestones.
 
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V767 said:
I appreciate the offer, but we do have people constructing the beta and we should have a definitive schedule on the paper, beta and soft launch soon. Besides, I don't control the money. I am basically the worst person to talk to in an attempt to be hired for work. Still, a valiant effort.

Anyway, once I have the schedule, you all will be the first to know. Well, other than me, because I will have it before you. So, you all will be the second to know.

Thanks.

V767
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People working on the Beta?

I'd recommend a stable version of vBulletin.
 
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