ICE
Oh Well
I suspect that the single conductors are part of a cable and the sheath didn't reach the enclosure.
-
Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades
An average day
- Thread starter ICE
- Start date
ICE
Oh Well
A good friend's son has begun the purchase of a new home in a tract that is being built by a national home builder. Just under a million dollars. There's near a hundred occupied homes and many more to come. So far I have only seen the main service and sub-panel.
There is no AFCI protection for the dishwasher, garbage disposal, refrigerator and microwave. I looked at a few other houses and they are all missing AFCI protection on the same circuits.
While I was there a representative of the builder met me. He asked me what I was doing and then asked if I have found anything wrong. I mentioned the AFCI. He assured me that the city inspectors are picky to the extreme and they have issued a final approval.
Now here's the rub...I live in that city. The building dept. has an opening that will be filled by a third party inspection company. I could easily have that job....part time even. I found eight other problems with this house and I haven't been past the garage. So obviously I would not fit in well with the building department.
View attachment IMG_3561.JPG
There is no AFCI protection for the dishwasher, garbage disposal, refrigerator and microwave. I looked at a few other houses and they are all missing AFCI protection on the same circuits.
While I was there a representative of the builder met me. He asked me what I was doing and then asked if I have found anything wrong. I mentioned the AFCI. He assured me that the city inspectors are picky to the extreme and they have issued a final approval.
Now here's the rub...I live in that city. The building dept. has an opening that will be filled by a third party inspection company. I could easily have that job....part time even. I found eight other problems with this house and I haven't been past the garage. So obviously I would not fit in well with the building department.
View attachment IMG_3561.JPG
They did not blame material shortages for the omission? While they are code requirements, the manufacturers lied as to what they do, can do, and the users have been the beta test ever since, your friends son may be better off without them, I do not advocate removing them, code is code. Same thing with domestic dishwashers catching fire, instead of fixing the problem, the appliance manufacturers successfully lobbied for GFCI's to be required, but GFCI's are fairly cheap and work, so I don't complain much about that requirement.
Joe.B
Registered User
You mentioned that you haven't been inside the house yet, there's a chance (yes, a very small chance) that all of the required AFCI/GFCI protection is at the first outlet of each branch. I have seen AFCI receptacles (and combination AFCI/GFCI) used the same way GFCI's are commonly used.
ICE
Oh Well
My friend has been inside and he verified that the receptacles do not have AFCI protection. They are GFCI protected receptacles within a cabinet under a sink.
Who among you would consider the under sink location a code violation?
Last edited:
fatboy
Administrator
"Who among you would consider the under sink location a code violation?"
I would............
I would............
I have maintained for a long time that multi-family dwellings and tract homes are built as cheap as they can get away with, not minimum code, they seem to know what they can get away with, years ago was talking with a EC who had been around in the heyday of aluminum branch circuit wiring, & was told if the difference was $20 a house between AL & CU, AL it was, and yes I would consider the GFCI location a code violation. Is there anything that can be done about it? I understand that inspection authorities have no liabilities for errors & omissions.
ICE
Oh Well
As O.B.Thompson used to say, "It's never too late to start over." Seriously though, receptacles can be swapped out and AFCI circuit breakers installed.
The picture is the AC disconnect. It is placed over a hole in the stucco wall. That's a zip-tie stuck in the hole and there is another opening above the missing cable connector. The can is against a window trim and caulked on two sides.
The refrigerant line set comes out of the wall through rubber gasket that is torn enough for mice to find a way in.
The cleanout will need a hammer and chisel first. The pipe is a termination for a T&P valve at the water heater. It is next to the spot where the garbage cans will be stored. It sticks out now but won't for long.
And one of my favorite violations; There is an offset nipple screwed into a hub.
There's more but I can only attach four pictures.
My comment about built as cheap as they can get away with, getting called out on it means they aren't getting away with it. 
Mounting 3R equipment prior to the stucco is another violation in my opinion, they have the metal embossed where the mounting screws go, to give it the required 1/4" airspace behind it, having the stucco finish all around it removes that airspace. from the looks of it they used conductors without being part of a cable, or in conduit. Around here they attach roof jacks to bring the A/C linesets through, it cleans things things up a lot as long as they are oriented correctly. I never knew that offset nipples could not be used with rain tight hubs, is that a use not permitted by the listing?
Looking at the lineset photo, a Oatey roof jack w/ the rubber gasket was used, never liked them but as shown it allows water to get in too.
Mounting 3R equipment prior to the stucco is another violation in my opinion, they have the metal embossed where the mounting screws go, to give it the required 1/4" airspace behind it, having the stucco finish all around it removes that airspace. from the looks of it they used conductors without being part of a cable, or in conduit. Around here they attach roof jacks to bring the A/C linesets through, it cleans things things up a lot as long as they are oriented correctly. I never knew that offset nipples could not be used with rain tight hubs, is that a use not permitted by the listing?
Looking at the lineset photo, a Oatey roof jack w/ the rubber gasket was used, never liked them but as shown it allows water to get in too.
ICE
Oh Well
The disconnect was placed over a finished stucco wall. I can't identify the wiring method from the pictures but I am convinced that it is a cable. There is a hole in the stucco and most likely wall sheathing.My comment about built as cheap as they can get away with, getting called out on it means they aren't getting away with it.
Mounting 3R equipment prior to the stucco is another violation in my opinion, they have the metal embossed where the mounting screws go, to give it the required 1/4" airspace behind it, having the stucco finish all around it removes that airspace. from the looks of it they used conductors without being part of a cable, or in conduit. Around here they attach roof jacks to bring the A/C linesets through, it cleans things things up a lot as long as they are oriented correctly. I never knew that offset nipples could not be used with rain tight hubs, is that a use not permitted by the listing?
Looking at the lineset photo, a Oatey roof jack w/ the rubber gasket was used, never liked them but as shown it allows water to get in too.
The offset nipple into a hub is a listing violation in that hubs have not been evaluated with straight threaded hardware. The hub has tapered threads and the nipple has straight threads. The nipple threads will not correctly engage the hub threads. This is a common practice in the solar industry.
I performed an experiment to see if the hardware is watertight. It failed. The hardware in the pictures is larger that what is used in the solar industry. I have replicated the result with the smaller hardware.
The nipple was threaded to refusal. I used a device to place water at the top of the hub. It drains slowly but after less than a minute the water has seeped through the connection and capillary action takes hold. The water then flows readily through the threaded connection.
Last edited:
The reason I thought it might have been single conductors was the black & red conductors, 2 conductor NM has normally black & white conductors, but the Canadian market has black & red two conductor NM, but the solid grounding conductor screams NM. I wonder if the neutral was snipped off? The straight thread prohibition into hubs knew applied to EMT connectors, but never considered offset nipples, since it installer seems to have needed to punch a KO in the bottom of the equipment, a rigid nipple & locknuts would have prob. done fine.
ICE
Oh Well
Fill it with air and inject a worm with air and the worm rises off the bottom of the lake. Fill it with water and use it in an empirical experiment.
Last edited:
steveray
SAWHORSE
I wouldn't necessarily....Just like I wouldn't consider a GFCI breaker "inside" a panel cover a violation....
ACCESSIBLE, READILY. Capable of being reached
quickly for operation, renewal or inspections, without requiring
those to whom ready access is requisite to take actions
such as to use tools, to climb over or remove obstacles or to
resort to portable ladders, etc.
Mr. Inspector
SAWHORSE
ICE
Oh Well
I have encountered that several times when I was at the property for a new project. I am convinced that the owners are in on the subterfuge to save money. I doubt that the breakers were replaced after the final inspection at this tract of homes.
ICE
Oh Well
In 2019 my sister hired a mechanical contractor to install a furnace/coil in the attic, condenser in the yard and a mini-split system for an addition. Then in 2021 she entered into a maintenance contract with a different HVAC company. The second contractor pointed out that all of the duct is R6 when R8 was required and that the return air duct was grossly undersized. She notified the installing contractor and he ignored her. She contacted the city building department (there is only a mechanical permit) and was told that it is too late to do anything....as in nothing.....didn't even ask for electrical or plumbing permits....it was, "Oh well, sorry about that."
In Oct. 2021 I was in town (C**** Ca) to visit the family, mother is doing well...thanks for asking, and my sister told me about the situation.
There is a permit for replacing HVAC equipment like for like that passed a final inspection. That permit is invalid in that there was only a floor furnace before. A HERS rater approved the work.
The first picture is the access path to the furnace. The return air duct blocks the path. The city inspector and the HERS rater did not enter the attic.
The next picture shows a sub-panel. One would have to lay on the ground to view the inside of that enclosure...in a fetal position.
The neutral is not isolated from ground. Cable has been used in a wet location.
CSST gas tubing was installed without a #6 bonding jumper. The gas pipe has no sediment trap. Cloth strap was used to support the duct. Had I been able to get to the furnace there would have been more corrections....
I wrote a bunch of corrections. The contractor balked at first but finding out that the CSLB is a phone call away he came around in the end. My sister hired other contractors to perform the corrections and the installing contractor sent her a check.
I am dismayed that the city building department just doesn't seem to care....as a conciliation the building official said that the inspector that came to her home no longer works for C**** BS.,,,,The HERS company sent a new guy to do it over and this guy belly crawled around the purlin braces.
The point here is that no matter where you are located you could get that same inspection result.
Thirty years ago I was a superintendent on condos built within the city of C****. I took over about a third of the way and I was told to not worry about inspections. I found out that the inspector would sign the job cards at a hotel room where he was provided a prostitute, money and booze.
I called the building official and had the inspector replaced. The BO asked for a reason and I told him that it was a serious bucket of worms. He told me that the inspector was months away from retirement so he didn’t need a reason after all.
I can’t say that the C**** Building dept. is still corrupt but clueless fits. At first thought one would think that a university town of well over 100K people would do better....then I remeber the millions in the AHJ where I worked and the parallels are obvious.
In Oct. 2021 I was in town (C**** Ca) to visit the family, mother is doing well...thanks for asking, and my sister told me about the situation.
There is a permit for replacing HVAC equipment like for like that passed a final inspection. That permit is invalid in that there was only a floor furnace before. A HERS rater approved the work.
The first picture is the access path to the furnace. The return air duct blocks the path. The city inspector and the HERS rater did not enter the attic.
The next picture shows a sub-panel. One would have to lay on the ground to view the inside of that enclosure...in a fetal position.
The neutral is not isolated from ground. Cable has been used in a wet location.
CSST gas tubing was installed without a #6 bonding jumper. The gas pipe has no sediment trap. Cloth strap was used to support the duct. Had I been able to get to the furnace there would have been more corrections....
I wrote a bunch of corrections. The contractor balked at first but finding out that the CSLB is a phone call away he came around in the end. My sister hired other contractors to perform the corrections and the installing contractor sent her a check.
I am dismayed that the city building department just doesn't seem to care....as a conciliation the building official said that the inspector that came to her home no longer works for C**** BS.,,,,The HERS company sent a new guy to do it over and this guy belly crawled around the purlin braces.
The point here is that no matter where you are located you could get that same inspection result.
Thirty years ago I was a superintendent on condos built within the city of C****. I took over about a third of the way and I was told to not worry about inspections. I found out that the inspector would sign the job cards at a hotel room where he was provided a prostitute, money and booze.
I called the building official and had the inspector replaced. The BO asked for a reason and I told him that it was a serious bucket of worms. He told me that the inspector was months away from retirement so he didn’t need a reason after all.
I can’t say that the C**** Building dept. is still corrupt but clueless fits. At first thought one would think that a university town of well over 100K people would do better....then I remeber the millions in the AHJ where I worked and the parallels are obvious.
Last edited:
ICE
Oh Well
That is correct. I suppose that I should have worded it differently. Another of the corrections was to remove the extra conductor and perform the work in a workman like manner....as it is it's hard to tell how this is wired. The panel has been raised and rewired. I haven't been back to see it.
The line set chase is wide open and the condensate drain needs just a little help.
Last edited:
ICE
Oh Well
ICE
Oh Well
The story is about ridiculous corrections.
Such as therse corrections that were written for a master bedroom and bathroom addition.
