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Electrical Panel inset between studs of garage

north star said:
& = &Since we have a non-compliant elec. panel install, ...lets ask

the design professionals on here what they would design /

recommend as a fix.

1. Remove the gypsum board behind the panelboard and

fill the cavity / areas with rock wool,

2. Remove the elec. panel itself and install it in a compliant

location [ this might be the least politically acceptable option ],

3. Remove the gypsum board behind the panelboard and box it

in and seal it with a layer of gypsum [ 1/2" min. ],

4. Remove the gypsum board behind the panelboard and

apply some type of [ actual ] fire rated product / coating

on to the back on the panelboard [ i.e. - a very large putty

pad, ...fire rated ceramic paint, ...other ],

5. other ?

What say ye design professionals out there ? :cool:

Also, ...since this is an electrical issue, what have you

electricians done in the past or present, for compliance

with one of these sit-chee-ay-shuns ?

Thanks!

& = &

Click to expand...
There is NO GYP behind the panel! if they had made a recessed gyp nook it would comply! Are there no takers on the gypboard closet idea? A I corret in thinking there is nothing against putting the panels "in" the wall as long as the "inside" of the wall is gyp and/or 20 min door? (And , this is the "solution" given to me to make a decision upon), The underground entrance cable is not long enough to bump this mess out another 5 or 6 inches.
 
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"There is NO GYP behind the panel! if they had made a recessed gyp nook it would comply!"

I agree, and would accept it.
 
Suggestion for new construction; what about that stubborn energy code requirement; mount the panel on the wall or in the wall of the garage outside the thermal envelope.

Francis
 
The panel is located on an outside wall that is not a rated assembly. There is no requirement that the membrane penetration be protected since the wall in question is not a fire rated assembly

E3402.2 Penetrations of fire-resistance-rated assemblies.

Electrical installations in hollow spaces, vertical shafts and ventilation or air-handling ducts shall be made so that the possible spread of fire or products of combustion will not be substantially increased. Electrical penetrations through fire-resistance-rated walls, partitions, floors or ceilings shall be protected by approved methods to maintain the fire-resistance rating of the element penetrated. Penetrations of fire-resistance-rated walls shall be limited as specified in Section R317.3. Should reference R302
 
There seems to be a sticking point on providing the 1/2" gyp. board or equivalent

(see post # 33 & 38).

It also seems that we all have differing views on what is actually required.

IMO, it's either a fully sealed gyp. board enclosure behind the panel,

or an equivalent.

Yankee, if you're the code official; and in reading some of the input so far,

( also, IMO) the rock wool scenario appears to be the least intrusive / possibly

the quickest route to compliance. Not sure if there are even that large of putty

pads out there. Maybe some "cobbled together" type of construction that

combines the rock wool, with gyp. board adhered to the rear of the electrical

panel. Probably won't be the best looking work, but if the intent is to

provide "an equivalent", then I would be satisfied with this option.

What about you.. ?

.
 
globe trekker said:
Dennis,The electrical panelboard is not considered an "equivalent" in providing fire resistance from

the Garage side. While an electrical panelboard may actually provide an amount of time

similar to the 1/2" sheetrock, it is not stated anywhere in the IRC or NEC that I know of.

I am not sure that any standardized testing agency has a rating for your average

electrical panelboard.

Your thoughts..
Click to expand...
I agree the panelboards are not fire rated but if the panel is facing the garage and has sheetrock on the house side are you saying that is or is not compliant?
 
north star said:
& = &Since we have a non-compliant elec. panel install, ...lets ask

the design professionals on here what they would design /

recommend as a fix.

1. Remove the gypsum board behind the panelboard and

fill the cavity / areas with rock wool,

2. Remove the elec. panel itself and install it in a compliant

location [ this might be the least politically acceptable option ],

3. Remove the gypsum board behind the panelboard and box it

in and seal it with a layer of gypsum [ 1/2" min. ],

4. Remove the gypsum board behind the panelboard and

apply some type of [ actual ] fire rated product / coating

on to the back on the panelboard [ i.e. - a very large putty

pad, ...fire rated ceramic paint, ...other ],

5. other ?

What say ye design professionals out there ? :cool:

Also, ...since this is an electrical issue, what have you

electricians done in the past or present, for compliance

with one of these sit-chee-ay-shuns ?

Thanks!

& = &

Click to expand...
I previously stated that I have the builders build another 2x4 wall just one bay wide and I install my panel in that wall. The wall behind would have sheetrock behind the panel and in the house. I think you are all saying that this is still not compliant????
 
Yes I would call that compliant and I wish they had enough slack in the SEC to do just that.
 
Remove the panel and install a window the same size. What is the differance you will not have a 1/2 layer of gypboard protecting the supporting construction?

I believe you are way overthinking this one if you are talking about an exterior wall supporting an upper living area
 
Sorry MT, the section calls for protection of the supporting framing, so a window could not be included in that framing, unless it had some sort of acceptable rating.
 
fatboy said:
Sorry MT, the section calls for protection of the supporting framing, so a window could not be included in that framing, unless it had some sort of acceptable rating.
Click to expand...
How about a garage door? All that is required is drywall on the wall. Where there is a window or a door, there is no wall to put drywall on. The walls in question have no rating. The only requirement is to fireblock around penetrations. There can be unlimited openings/penetrations as long as the "Structure(s) supporting" the ceiling/floor is protected with drywall.
 
ICE said:
How about a garage door? All that is required is drywall on the wall. Where there is a window or a door, there is no wall to put drywall on. The walls in question have no rating. The only requirement is to fireblock around penetrations. There can be unlimited openings/penetrations as long as the "Structure(s) supporting" the ceiling/floor is protected with drywall.
Click to expand...
Window and door openings are headed off, hence the structure supporting the second floor is not in the area of the window or door and IS covered in gyp.
 
R302.11.1 Fireblocking materials.

Except as provided in Section R302.11, Item 4, fireblocking shall consist of the following materials.

1. Two-inch (51 mm) nominal lumber.

2x lumber is considered to be fireblocking......so why does a wall comprised of 2x lumber need protection with drywall?
 
There is no difference between the service panel penetration than PVC washer box, dryer box, steel outlets full of holes and plastic boxes that are not required to be rated permitted in the IRC.

Francis
 
Francis Vineyard said:
There is no difference between the service panel penetration than PVC washer box, dryer box, steel outlets full of holes and plastic boxes that are not required to be rated permitted in the IRC. Francis
Click to expand...
Isn't there a max single area and placement for those items?
 
ICE said:
R302.11.1 Fireblocking materials. Except as provided in Section R302.11, Item 4, fireblocking shall consist of the following materials.

1. Two-inch (51 mm) nominal lumber.

2x lumber is considered to be fireblocking......so why does a wall comprised of 2x lumber need protection with drywall?
Click to expand...
Do you see this as a fire blocking issue? There is a separate section that deals with fire blocking, if it were simply a fire blocking issue why would there be another section for "separation"?
 
Reflecting on posts 58, 60, & 61.

WHOA! I have never considered this code section was established to prevent windows or doors in load bearing exterior walls under living spaces. I think it was established primarily to prevent the practice of lining such a garage wall with pegboard or plywood as some folks are apt to want to do.
 
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One interpretation of why a 1/2" layer of gypsum or an equivalent is required is that

it provides a barrier from a fire event in the enclosed Garage, and the products of

the fire event from entering the Residential areas (i.e. = smoke first, then actual flame).

The actual flames are seeking oxygen to propagate further. Yes Yankee, ..separation!

I have been told that a 1/2" layer of gyp. board will provide about 15 mins. of time,

the fire blocking about 20-30 mins. of time.

The intent in this application is to protect the Residential areas from the fire event in

the Garage (i.e. - 5/8" Type X on the Garage ceiling, a solid wood or steel door with no

glass, metal exhaust ducts directed to the exterior, etc.). IMO, the 1/2" layer of

gyp. board on the Garage side is a draftstop. As such, Section E3302.3 would apply!

Section E3302.3 = Penetrations of firestops and draftstops.

Penetrations through fire blocking and draftstopping shall be protected in an approved

manner to maintain the integrity of the element penetrated.

The electrical panel is not an approved manner!

I am surprised that no RDP's have contributed to this discussion yet!

FWIW, ..yes Yankee I would be o.k. with your proposed gyp. board enclosure behind

the panelboard itself as a compliant solution.

.
 
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Right there with you on this one!......Do we have to start looking at garages as VA where all of the jambs (RO) get wrapped?

Jobsaver said:
Reflecting on posts 58, 60, & 61.WHOA! I have never considered this code section was established to prevent windows or doors in load bearing exterior walls under living spaces. I think it was established primarily to prevent the practice of lining such a garage wall with pegboard or plywood as some folks are apt to want to do.
Click to expand...
 
R302.6 Dwelling/garage fire separation.

The garage shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. This provision does not apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall.

My understanding is the wall in question is perpendicular to the dwelling unit (exterior wall) Section 302.5 does not apply

The wall will have two 2x top plates fill the annular space where the electrical wire penetrates the top plate with fire caulk and don't worry about it.
 
mtlogcabin said:
R302.6 Dwelling/garage fire separation.The garage shall be separated as required by Table R302.6. Openings in garage walls shall comply with Section R302.5. This provision does not apply to garage walls that are perpendicular to the adjacent dwelling unit wall.

My understanding is the wall in question is perpendicular to the dwelling unit (exterior wall) Section 302.5 does not apply

The wall will have two 2x top plates fill the annular space where the electrical wire penetrates the top plate with fire caulk and don't worry about it.
Click to expand...
Good example of an applicable code change from the 2006 IRC to the 2009 IRC.
 
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