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Frost Protection of Foundation/Footing

imhotep said:
Isn't a footing (if present) the permanent support for a foundation wall?
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Yes, the code says that the foundation wall AND permanent supports must extend below the frost depth. I do not see the word OR in that sentence.
 
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"They need to change the verbiage of the code then.................. "
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It would probably be easier and faster to amend your own AHJ's requirements, ratherthan go through "The Cow'" CMP's.

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1997 UBC, SECTION 1806.1 sez the same thing, foundations shall extend below the frost line. All these basements in the mid-west, not built to code!

Wonder how you meet the siding requirement of 6" from earth when the foundation is to be below frost depth?

pc1
 
it makes sense to me to go below the frost line, especially if heaving due to frost action is of concern. given that ,i'd be inclined to set the top of the footing at 36", that way the footing is in fact below the frost line. i'm from up north where the frost will go 5 feet on a cold winter, so most of the stuff i've seen was 7 feet to top of the footing, with a full 8 foot wall on it. lots-o concrete! and steel, and cold fingers and feet, and well you get the idea.
 
to pc1 what? the 6 inches from earth is the closest the siding can be, most time any fouindation i've worked on extended from the top of the footing (whcih was built to be below frost line) to at least 8 inches above finish grade. once plates are set and framing starts, you are looking at probably seven inches from bottom of siding to earth.....plywood sheathuinfg will hang over plate and fdn at leat 3/4 of an inch.....
 
codeworks, I understand the building practice you have posted. The word in question is "FOUNDATION". The foundation must be below the frost line, let's say 24". At what point does the foundation below a frost line change to allow a wall design that you indicte to be built. On a basement foundation wall below a frost line at some point extends past the frost line to daylight for you to install a floor and wood wall as you have dipicted?

Foundation verbage change needed or a better explaination.

pc1
 
The foundation wall when bearing on a concrete footing is a system that would include the footing as part of the wall and the frost depth would be the bottom of the footing.

A crushed stone footing supporting a pre-cast foundation wall or a wood foundation wall would not be included as part of the wall sytem and therefore the frost depth would be measured to the bottom of the foundation pre-cast concrete or wood foundation wall.

FIGURE R403.1(2)

FIGURE R403.1(3)

TABLE R403.4

MINIMUM DEPTH OF CRUSHED STONE FOOTINGS (D), (inches)
 
That's odd, IBC 1809.5 says foundations, not foundation walls. Why would a residence need deeper footings than a heavier commercial building?
 
This is a good example of why it is helpful to know the intent of the code. Being stuck on the word "foundation" as opposed to understanding the guiding principle of the requirement
 
I have always assumed that the base of the footing (or pier) was required to be below the frost line. Although, after reading the code section I can understand why it could be interpreted as the base of the wall - It looks like a clarification is needed from ICC.
 
As R403.1.4 speaks to minimum footing depth , and the subsection R403.1.4.1 speaks to frost protection, it is my thinking that the subsection is describing requirements for the main section. Measured to the bottom of the footing. JMHO
 
Pcinspector1 said:
codeworks, I understand the building practice you have posted. The word in question is "FOUNDATION". The foundation must be below the frost line, let's say 24". At what point does the foundation below a frost line change to allow a wall design that you indicte to be built. On a basement foundation wall below a frost line at some point extends past the frost line to daylight for you to install a floor and wood wall as you have dipicted? Foundation verbage change needed or a better explaination.

pc1
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NO, the foundation wall must extend below the frost depth. Does not mean the entire wall, just that it must extend below the frost depth.
 
Yankee said:
This is a good example of why it is helpful to know the intent of the code. Being stuck on the word "foundation" as opposed to understanding the guiding principle of the requirement
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There is a difference between Foundation and Foundation Wall. It specifically says that the Foundation Wall must extend below the frost depth. The Foundation Wall sits on top of the Footer.

I can't believe many of you have not been enforcing this properly. If you adopted the code as written that is. ;)
 
I think the intent is the BOTTOM of the FOUNDATION WALL be below the frost footer. We have a 24" frost line, piers and trenches here are 36" deep, I think I'm enforing this properly.

Take a spead footer that is below the frost line, the bottom of the wall needs to be below the frost line as well to prevent the wall from heaving if frost penatrates between the top of the footer and the bottom of the foundation wall. Agreed

But does it say that? It sez foundations shall extend below the frost line, dose'nt say the bottom of the foundation wall?

Verbage changed needed IMO.

pc1
 
Jar, that's a cheap shot. I expected better from you. I consider the walls and the footings to be part of a foundation wall system. You take the wording of "foundation wall" more literally. That is an administrative call that any B.O. is entitled to make. My interpretation is no more right or wrong than yours. I enforce the code properly according to the way I read it, as do you.

Joe
 
It says the foundation wall must extend below the frost depth, not just foundation. BTW, there is a difference.

There is a forest through those trees
 
mn joe said:
Jar, that's a cheap shot. I expected better from you. I consider the walls and the footings to be part of a foundation wall system. You take the wording of "foundation wall" more literally. That is an administrative call that any B.O. is entitled to make. My interpretation is no more right or wrong than yours. I enforce the code properly according to the way I read it, as do you.Joe
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I don't agree with your cheap shot opinion but it is your opinion and you are entitled to it. Nothing says foundation wall system, it says foundation wall. There are footers and there are walls.

Did you ever see a block wall get pushed off of a footer in a crawlspace? I did, multiple times. Common problem? Shallow frost footer and wall not below frost depth.
 
Jar in the older guys days when were ere on earlier CABO ther was language that would actually allow the grushed gravel - 3/4 to 1-1/2" stone leveling -drainage pad to be counted up to a max of 12" depth as contributing to the "depth to frost protection" IF the soil below was free draining (non -expansive) I as a designer and a CBO absolutly count the Footing as a foundation - WHY? Cause I just prepared submitted and had approved a V/Coastal A pier and grade beam building support system where the Footing is at 7 foot depth (due to scour and erosion potential) the Piers are at 6 foot depth (to top of footing) and the grade beams are only 16" to the base (between and to top of piers) with a "Frost Depth" of 48" the grade beams are to controlled fill free draining material - the slab which abuts per asce-24 and Fema guides is designed to break up - so I would absolutly be confident that the "Frost Depth you are discussing is to the Lowest Level of structural support. Problems with ICC code language is PEOPLE OVER THINK and then others attemp to define what they are supposed to think, and attempt to write language to make it crystal clear and cover every possible nuance. Proble = People Thinking
 
DId I tell you I Touch type and miss the edit button so to Harvey Schorr sorry for the TYPOZ - Harvey was a BIG (his opinion) architect at one of the mega firms I worked at - Fancied himself an English Lit professor / architect.
 
jar546 said:
It does not matter what is "customary" in your area if you have adopted the codebook as written. It says what it says.
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While I agree that our codes can use improvements, the word "FOOTER" is not used in any of the codes I have. Which code section is it used in your codes, Jeff?

It always puzzles me when builders or inspectors use incorrect terminology, and yet claim they know the code. So, with all due respect, I humbly suggest that they clarify and check their own verbiage before criticizing the model code. Perhaps the word "FOOTER" is the same as "FOOTING" and still part of the foundation system?

Is not the "foundation wall" a system? Does it include reinforcement steel, anchor and holdown bolts, a minimum thickness, and a footing (or point of bearing)? Does a monolithic slab have a footing (or point of bearing)? -- I'd say 'YES" to all three questions!

The answers to my questions often become apparent when I strive to understand the INTENT and PURPOSE of a code section.
 
Think of the big picture, the AHJ sets the frost depth. Set it at the appropriate distance to allow for measuring to the bottom of the footing. That removes all the high-jinx with footing depths etc etc.
 
Excellent point, the AHJ will decide what the minimum depth is to the bottom of the footing...........
 
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