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Frost Protection of Foundation/Footing

High Desert

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Jar, you need to read and apply the entire section of that code provision. The charging statement is minimum depth for footings. The last sentence says the depths of footing where applicable, shall also conform to Sections R403.1.4.1 though R403.1.4.2. One of the methods is to place the footing below the frost depth, which the statement in R403.1.4 tells you you must do.The section you are hung up on says you need to protect foundation walls, piers and other permanent supports of buildings and structures from frost by one or more of the following methods. So in other words, if you place the footing below the frost depth, the code is saying that is one way to protect the foundation walls. You are reading way too much into the code.

R403.1.4 Minimum depth. All exterior footings shall be

placed at least 12 inches (305 mm) below the undisturbed

ground surface. Where applicable, the depth of footings shall

also conform to Sections R403.1.4.1 through R403.1.4.2.

R403.1.4.1 Frost protection. Except where otherwise

protected from frost, foundation walls, piers and other

permanent supports of buildings and structures shall be

protected from frost by one or more of the following methods:

1. Extended below the frost line specified in Table

R301.2.(1);

2. Constructing in accordance with Section R403.3;

3. Constructing in accordance with ASCE 32; or

4. Erected on solid rock.
 

mn joe

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Jan 5, 2010
Messages
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That was my question too, but I didn't want to slow down the thread!

Joe
 

gbhammer

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jar546 said:
Yes, but I have to throw myself into it.................Great responses from many, even though many of you are wrong
LOL

Now please answer papio's question about the figures that show a foundation wall sitting on crushed gravel where it clearly defines the bottom of the gravel as needing to be below the frost line, not the wall but the bottom of the gravel.

The diagrams are real cut and dry, the fon
 

jar546

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Papio Bldg Dept said:
Jar, you never responded to my post about diagrams R403.1(2) & R403.1(3) where the frost depth is shown at the bottom of the crushed stone layer, which is a minimum of six inches below the footer plate? This would seem to cement, if not set in stone, your argument, that the frost line be below the footing. ;)
I am not familiar with wooden foundation walls without concrete footings. Looks like they made a mistake on the diagrams because it does not match the wording of the code. :)
 

gbhammer

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jar546 said:
I am not familiar with wooden foundation walls without concrete footings. Looks like they made a mistake on the diagrams because it does not match the wording of the code. :)
I am feeling a bit under the weather today so that actually hurt when I bursted out laughing about who was making the mistake.
 

High Desert

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I hate to say it Jar, but you are wrong. The charging statement refers to footings placed below the frost line. Section R403.1.4.1 is a subsection of R403.1.4. Applying your logic the entire foundation wall would have to be below the frost line, which is virtually impossible.
 

fatboy

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Northern CO
"The charging statement refers to footings placed below the frost line. Section R403.1.4.1 is a subsection of R403.1.4."

As I said in post #37...........
 

Mule

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Texas
Why can't the wall be part of the footing? Where is it in the code that the wall has to be poured in one continuous pour?

Figure R317.1(5) shows that the foundation wall is part of the footing.
 

Papio Bldg Dept

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gbhammer said:
I am feeling a bit under the weather today so that actually hurt when I bursted out laughing about who was making the mistake.
I think jar did an excellent job getting 4 pages out of this topic myself. Given that I worked on several projects with one of the ICC's consulting engineers for wood foundations, I feel fairly certain jar can only dig his footing hole deeper at this point if he still wants to come out on top.
 

Papio Bldg Dept

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for kicks and giggles, here is the 2006 IBC (Commentary in italics)

1805.2 Depth of footings. The minimum depth of footings below the undisturbed ground surface shall be 12 inches. Where applicable the depth of the footings shall also conform to Sections 1805.2.1 through 1805.2.3.

*Footings are required to extend below the ground surface a minimum of 12 inches. This is considered a minimum depth to protect the footing from movement of the soil caused by freezing and thawing in mild climate areas (see Section 1805.2.1 for general frost protection requirements).

1805.2.1 Frost Protection. Except where otherwise protected from frost, foundation walls, piers and other permanent supports of buildings and structures shall be protected by one or more of the following methods:

1. Extending below the frost line of the locality;

2. Constructing in accordance with ASCE 32; or

3. Erecting on solid rock.

Exceptions: Blah blah blah.

Footings shall not bear on frozen soil unless such frozen condition is of a permanent character.

*Unless the exception applies, the foundation is to be protected from frost in accordance with this Section. A common method of accomplishing this is by placing the footing bottom below the frost line.
 

jar546

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If you have a footing, it obviously must be below frost depth. The issue is the wording of the code that specifies that the foundation wall extend below frost depth. There is a section on footings and a section on foundation walls. They are two different entities. The chapter, however is for foundations. Which is what you get when you marry the two together.

Who is up for a code change submission?
 

fatboy

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I'll take a whack at it, to late to get anything into the IBC, but there's plenty of time for the IRC though, January 3, 2013. The Colorado Chapter is very active with code changes, we have a solid committee that reviews our proposals. I'll drop it in a new thread here when I have something.

Unless anyone else wants to do it?
 

jar546

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Palm Beach County Florida
We will have the 2009 here until at least 2015 so I don't see any reason for me to put time and effort into it. We will just keep enforcing it the way it is written without an hassles as we always have.
 

Mule

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Texas
Written! :) How is it written? In my opinion I see it written as the foundation wall can be part of the footing and the bottom of the footing/wall has to be below frost line. :)
 

Pcinspector1

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Jar, could you post a drawing of how it's done in PA! or your area? This has been a great topic, I might add.

pc1
 

Pcinspector1

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Thoose of you that use to get the building journal and have back issues, check out the one for 2003 that has trench footings, that issue also had an article about smoke alarms for ADA requirements on the top of the magizine. I don't have the mag in the office.

pc1
 
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