Red, Your doing an excellent job with your research and your instincts are right on. I also do not have the BOCA code book, but based upon your code section excerpts it is clear that the stairs were required to have handrails on both sides.
-
Welcome to the new and improved Building Code Forum. We appreciate you being here and hope that you are getting the information that you need concerning all codes of the building trades. This is a free forum to the public due to the generosity of the Sawhorses, Corporate Supporters and Supporters who have upgraded their accounts. If you would like to have improved access to the forum please upgrade to Sawhorse by first logging in then clicking here: Upgrades
Help, please.....
- Thread starter oldred
- Start date
619.1 AS REQUIRED EXITWAY: "Exterior stairways conforming to the requirments for interior stairways in all respects, except as to enclosures and except as herein specifically modified, may be accepted as an element of a reuired means of egress in buildings not exceeding 5 stories or 65 feet in height for other than use group I buildings, except as provided in Section 619.1.1 for residential bilding. Exterior stairways which are accepted as exitway elements shall be relieved from requirements for fire doors, but shall be provided with handrails and guards as required for interior exitway stairs."
Thank you JPohling. I've one last picture I would like you all to look at. I hope it does not change anyone's opinion about handrails. This is looking outward from the aparatment doors. There is a small section of concrete before the concrete steps begin. Could they claim that the small section of concrete is the exit discharge, period and amen?
View attachment 1007
I also apologize for my grammar and spelling errors.View attachment 1007
/monthly_2014_02/572953d1ac163_Picture38.jpg.3479239846d8f9be92b85d644ebb5b7d.jpg
View attachment 1007
I also apologize for my grammar and spelling errors.View attachment 1007
/monthly_2014_02/572953d1ac163_Picture38.jpg.3479239846d8f9be92b85d644ebb5b7d.jpg
jpranch
Platinum Member
I think that it could be argued either way. I would argue that you are not to the "public way" until after you have traversed the stairs to the sidewalk at the bottom. Further to that point I would also argue that as you exit the building and before you are at the stairs you are in fact walking on a stair landing. Thoughts?oldred said:
Last edited by a moderator:
I could not argue that either way. The first third of that section of concrete is still under the overhanging eave of the building. In no way shape or form is that the "public way" or "open space". You need to traverse the stairs to get to the street.
In any case a stair is a stair regardless of where it is located and needs to have handrails. Find an attorney willing to take the case and file. And look for a new place to move come lease completion. A slip and fall case with brain injury can be very lucrative for the attorney.
In any case a stair is a stair regardless of where it is located and needs to have handrails. Find an attorney willing to take the case and file. And look for a new place to move come lease completion. A slip and fall case with brain injury can be very lucrative for the attorney.
JPranch, let's talk lights and BOCA :| page 188, 1975 BOCA code book, section 624.1, ARTIFICIAL LIGHTING: "All means of egress in other than one-and two- family dwellings shall be equipped with artificial lighting facilities to provide the intensity of illumination herein prescribed continuously during the time that conditions of occupancy of the building require that the exitways be available. Lighting shall also be provided to illuminate the exitway discharge."
The importance to the "exitwaydischarge" is that without it then the stairway is not covered my code; it is not with the "means of egress". I believe strongly that the stairway here is indeed an exit discharge leading to a street.
The most important and strongest objection to the city interpretation in contained in article 607.0, TYPES AND LOCATIONS OF EXITWAYS," ARRANGEMENT: All required exitways shall be so located as to be discernible and accessible with unobstructed access thereto, and so arranged as to lead directly to the street or to an area of refuge with supplemental means of egress that will not be obstructed or impaired by fire, smoke or other cause".
We must access the street for safety and as such the stairs become the "exit discharge".
The importance to the "exitwaydischarge" is that without it then the stairway is not covered my code; it is not with the "means of egress". I believe strongly that the stairway here is indeed an exit discharge leading to a street.
The most important and strongest objection to the city interpretation in contained in article 607.0, TYPES AND LOCATIONS OF EXITWAYS," ARRANGEMENT: All required exitways shall be so located as to be discernible and accessible with unobstructed access thereto, and so arranged as to lead directly to the street or to an area of refuge with supplemental means of egress that will not be obstructed or impaired by fire, smoke or other cause".
We must access the street for safety and as such the stairs become the "exit discharge".
I have to tell you gentlemen that you have renewed my spirit/self-confidence to proceed. I also have to keep in mind that this is for my husband. If I quit now then I take away the benefit of future health care as well as the overall quality of his life. Okay, I'm off to author a letter to the Mayor of Lynchburg. Once again, thank you all so very much.
I would suggest you talk to the ones on this site that have sent you a private messageoldred said:
Before you write the letter
They can give you some verbiage and also maybe review the letter prior to giving it to the mayor
I will follow your advise cda, except I do disagree with the beef being more with the building manager. First the nature of the incident needs to be clarified, and once that is done, then the building owner. Done for the day. I started to author my letter and my husband asked me to watch the news with him. Letter will wait until tomorrow. Good night!
Francis Vineyard
Registered User
FWIW if the building was completed in1976 it's improbable that a permit was issued under the 1975 BOCA since it wasn't in effect until 01/07/1976; chances are it was the 1970 BOCA with the 1972 supplement as amended by USBC.
The Virginia codes can be viewed from the bottom link provided at this forum home page.
The Virginia codes can be viewed from the bottom link provided at this forum home page.
jpranch
Platinum Member
Not really. It all depends on the state adoption date. It is not unusual at all for a code to come out and take years for the state to adopt. Just the nature of the beast.oldred said:
Well, I looked at the '70 codes when this first began. If I remember correctly there was a '72 supplement that accompanied it. I studied it and took notes aplenty. We do not know when this bldg. was "officially" built nor when it passed code for occupancy. Ready for this? According to City Hall all occupancy certificates where thrown out, accidently. They, a secretary and a now retired dept. head were stopped once it became obvious what they were doing. They were non discriminatory record destroyers. Just started at the letter A and made it all the way to M before they were shut down. There is a division map and it is dated 1976 and City Hall has stated that is the date to go by. I'm not making this up. Really, I'm not. I have to go by City Hall's call on the date and they are sticking to 1976. They had the '70 BOCA book and '72 supplemental at City Hall. Once they told me I had the wrong date they also told they do not have the '75 BOCA book at City Hall. That is where the IFC came into the picture. A lady named Juanita Talmadge (sp?) was so very helpful. First she sent me the content listing and then I told her what sections I wanted. The cost was $1.00 a page to copy, but well worth it. I do not recall when the state of VA went to BOCA code, but it was before as said 1/6/76 rings a bell. Now I should also say that we moved here 16 months ago, and we love Lynchburg and the state of Virginia. I'm not so sure about the Bldg. Code Dept., but it truly is a great little city. I need help with my husband, and I'm going to need more as time goes on. We had two places to chose from where there is plenty of family to help me. NH, and FL. Guess which one I've picked? After this winter is was an easy decision.
cda, you are very correct about landowner being responsible. That said, if you thought you were going to end up in a court battle with a very influential entity would you rather go in with the city code dept. saying 2 codes were violated or would you rather have to prove negligence. I'm dealing with the landlord's insurance company now and they have denied any responsibility because codes "were not broken", and we have not proved negligence.
jpranch and francis vineyard as just stated the city says 1976 is date we go by......
I have to admit, I'm a little tired of it all. Can see why a lot of people would just walk away. I've been at this for a year. We have a 2 year statue of limitations so I need keep going until the case is done and over. Can't give up. I've a neurological disease, and my husband now has brain injury. I keep telling him when we get down in the dumps that we are blessed because we really do make one good whole. :grin: Onward.
cda, you are very correct about landowner being responsible. That said, if you thought you were going to end up in a court battle with a very influential entity would you rather go in with the city code dept. saying 2 codes were violated or would you rather have to prove negligence. I'm dealing with the landlord's insurance company now and they have denied any responsibility because codes "were not broken", and we have not proved negligence.
jpranch and francis vineyard as just stated the city says 1976 is date we go by......
I have to admit, I'm a little tired of it all. Can see why a lot of people would just walk away. I've been at this for a year. We have a 2 year statue of limitations so I need keep going until the case is done and over. Can't give up. I've a neurological disease, and my husband now has brain injury. I keep telling him when we get down in the dumps that we are blessed because we really do make one good whole. :grin: Onward.
Can we please shut this woman up! Seriously, I just have one more thing to say, now that I've had my first cup of coffee. I know the landlord is responsible, but the Code dept. has a responsibility too........ They will not even listen to our case. I'm going to hold the landlord accountable but I'm also going to have City Hall step up and show some respect us. I want to sit with them and have them listen to us. It won't take forever, but I do have illustrations upon illustrations that call our stairway an exit discharge. If after looking at what I have and listening to what we want to say, if they still maintain no code violation then we will proceed with legal charges against the landlord and go to court.
Well in away the city has some liability, Problem is the owner is totally responsible for the building being built to code......
The city normally has a disclaimer that we reviewed the plans and they look good,,,,,
But owner / builder is responsible for any misses including during the inspection process.
The city normally has a disclaimer that we reviewed the plans and they look good,,,,,
But owner / builder is responsible for any misses including during the inspection process.
I am sure the city has some language to relieve them of liability for errors in the plan check and permit process, all cities do. The Owner is indeed responsible. At this point it seems your goal would be to have the city admit that at the time of construction the stairs would have been code required to have handrails and possibly required illumination levels. Unfortunately that so far has been a dead end. I think the "conflict of interest" claim can work both ways. Your position could be that it would be a conflict of interest for the city to now agree with you. You now have access thru this forum to building officials across the country that have no conflict of interest in providing documentation that would support with your findings. Any luck with the attorney? A well crafted letter from an attorney would certainly get the owners attention.
Attorney Trost also stated "conflict of interest". I'll keep looking. I don't want to hold the city liable for anything. Never did.....it is the owner who is responsible. All I've wanted from the city is to say that 2 building codes were violated.
I've sat here this overcast Monday and just tried to come to terms with what this is all about. My husband has aged so much since this fall that I think, forget about the fall, just concentrate all your energy and time on him. I know his accident did not have to happen. A railing and light would have kept in safe. I know that. I apologize starting this thread as if a railing was not in place. You know when you have been lied to so often you build a wall. You learn not to trust people who are charged with insuring your well being.....fail. So many lies....I won't go there again. You know what guys, I think this is just a case where city hall is strong, and will have the last word.
north star
Sawhorse
- Joined
- Oct 19, 2009
- Messages
- 4,596
[ = = = ]
oldred,
Please do not apologize for starting your thread !.......We are here to help,
and have tried to assist you with your problem, and to give you some
guidance on direction and [ possible ] resources to contact.
I, for one, am truly sorry to hear about your husband's accident and
subsequent condition........I have already added you both to my prayers,
and will continue to pray for you both !
FWIW, ...this Forum is a great resource, and has lots of caring,
knowledgeable people on here.
[ = = = ]
oldred,
Please do not apologize for starting your thread !.......We are here to help,
and have tried to assist you with your problem, and to give you some
guidance on direction and [ possible ] resources to contact.
I, for one, am truly sorry to hear about your husband's accident and
subsequent condition........I have already added you both to my prayers,
and will continue to pray for you both !
FWIW, ...this Forum is a great resource, and has lots of caring,
knowledgeable people on here.
[ = = = ]
North Star, thank you very much for your kind words and prayers. Got me crying! I've been fighting a bad cold, an influential landowner, and city hall.....I'm worn down. Plus I feel a lot of responsibility to do right by my husband. He can't do it for himself. And JPohling, you got it right. I will look to Roanoke. Gotta shake the blues and get it done. Thanks again, to both of you. Will keep you posted.