Home Depot Crew

[Min&Max]

Re: Home Depot Crew

I have no ICC training on job site safety regulations. Since the IRC building code requirements are my reason for being there, if I feel I can safely do the inspection, I will do so and leave. The workers safety is the responsibility of the workers, the contractor and OSHA. Cherry picking worker safety violations is an open invitation to a lawsuit. Like Incognito said, you better have your own liability insurance because you are going to need it.

 

[brudgers]

Re: Home Depot Crew

I believe we as code officials have some responsibility. Here are a few examples. Show up for a sewer lateral inspection. Plumbers working in a ditch 8' deep. No protection. Do you approve the inspection or not?Next: worker repairing a man hole for building sewer connection. No safety regulations being followed. Do you inspect and approve the work?

Next: Workers welding and burning steel with out and fire watch or means of putting out the fire if one starts. Do you turn a blind eye?

Next: 3 story office building with open stair wells and elevator shafts with no protection? Do you inspect the pans and wire an walk away?

The list goes on!

If you're not inspecting because the conditions place you at risk, then it's ethical.

If you're not inspecting due to the potential hazard to others even though you are safe, then it's unethical and it would be unethical not to bring the hazard to the attention of the superintendent or other jobsite leader.

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: Home Depot crew

Excuse me, a LAW in Oregon that requires an inspector to write the code section when citing code - sorry, but I never heard of that rule. I do know of some jurisdictions where the BO made it a requirement, but to my knowledge it wasn't state law. Do you have the section of Oregon law that states that? I've just never heard of it being state law in Oregon.

It is an Administrative Rule not a law. (Law is the statutes - when referring to State law). However it is a regulation/Rule Policy of the Building Code Division of the Oregon Department of Consumer & Business Services.

It is a Rule not a statute but their maybe some statute that essentially requires it. Well... the Rule is adopted to enforce laws. It is under the same set of Administrative Rules that adopts the I-codes into the Oregon Specialty Codes. Of course, the state law only requires that a Building Codes is adopted and enforced to safeguard public health, safety, and welfare but the code language itself is just a regulation adopted under Administrative Rules.

Rules and policies are made to keep the B.O.s operating in a professional manner (well... we hope)

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: deleted

I am not an OSHA informant. I will do my job and let OSHA do theirs.If I do not feel the site is safe for me to complete an inspection, I will inform the contractor that I will return when it is. Getting sucked into the OSHA regs as it may apply to workers is a dangerous thing. Once you start there is no clean place to stop. Hope your jurisdiction has good insurance and a great attorney. And you better take out an errors and omissions policy on yourself for when your jurisdiction walks away.

You as a "law enforcement officer" is required by law to report any noticed violation of a law to the agency in charge. Do you think that a County police officer on city road isn't going to report to the City police officer when he sees a dangerous conditions.

The same goes, when you see an unlicensed person prepare plans for a non-exempt building - are you going to not report it to the the license board(s) even though it is NOT your duty as it has nothing to do with the codes but state laws governing architectural / engineering practice laws. You can also stop performing the inspection if the site is not compliant with OSHA laws because it poses a threat / endangerment to your health, safety and welfare as well as the public and the workers. You report it because it is law. You may not have authority to 'discipline' the person such as the county officer may not have jurisdictional authority to arrest or ticket a speeder on city roads. He may (as well as you) have the authority to report it to the AHJ. In this case, the jurisdiction is not a geographical but a legal / statutory jurisdiction. You may not discipline the unlicensed person practicing architecture on a non-exempt building/project. But you report it to the authority.

it is your moral / professional / and ethical duty to work together with the other authority. If you see a person doing reckless driving on the road, you report it to the police. You have a fore-most duty to protect and safeguard the public health, safety and welfare. Period. You may do it in a particular area but you have the fore-most to do that first.

If OSHA violation is sufficient to endanger your well-being and inhibit your ability to do your work in a safe manner, you may require that they comply with OSHA standards (in order to comply with the governing laws) before you will continue to perform your inspection or you'll report it to OSHA authorities. You have what is called "incidental" overlapping authority to enforce OSHA and ALL legal matters relating even to the most peripheral level to that relating to the construction of buildings and can require that they comply before you are going to risk your well-being and can require a Stop-Work Order until you can complete your inspection..

You have limited incidental authority but you may require conditions to comply with OSHA standards in a manner that is reasonably safe for you to perform your duties. You're not going to inspect the steel framing of a 25 story office building without it being OSHA compliant and OSHA compliant fall-arrest gear. You want to ensure YOUR safety fore-most. It is not your duty to issue fines for OSHA non-compliance but that can be an issue that can have latitude for not being compliant with code by it being an obstruction to you performing your inspection duties.

 

[peach]

Re: Home Depot Crew

having observed the way OSHA and the general contractors handle reportable injuries (including death).. I can tell you, your authority extends to why you are there. If you witness what happens, you are a witness.. not a responsible in charge..

If you don't have an OSHA 10 or 30 hour card.. and if you're not there for safety.. you are irrelevant

 

[incognito]

Re: Home Depot Crew

Rick,

I have absolutely zero hours of OSHA training. As such any effort on my part to enforce OSHA regs would be based on heresay information from others or conjecture on my part. I have absolutely zero interest in obtaining knowledge of OSHA regs. I will happily limit myself to issues which are clearly defined in the IBC and IRC. Just as only registered design professionals should perform engineering tasks, only trained and qualified OSHA inspectors should be performing OSHA inspections.

 

[kilitact]

Re: Home Depot Crew

incognito wrote:

Rick,I have absolutely zero hours of OSHA training. As such any effort on my part to enforce OSHA regs would be based on heresay information from others or conjecture on my part. I have absolutely zero interest in obtaining knowledge of OSHA regs. I will happily limit myself to issues which are clearly defined in the IBC and IRC. Just as only registered design professionals should perform engineering tasks, only trained and qualified OSHA inspectors should be performing OSHA inspections.

Good post, right on track.

 

[SCBO1]

Re: Home Depot Crew

Incog, nailed it!

Here is a site with additional information about types of OSHA inspections: http://www.nahb.org/page.aspx/category/sectionID=616

 

[Rider Rick]

Re: Home Depot Crew

Tiger,

Answer me this?

Why is it time to go or delete?

Rick

 

[JBI]

Re: Home Depot Crew

Had to go back to my old 'rogue' NYS Code to find it. Prior to the (modified I-)Codes of NYS, OSHA was a referenced standard here. Safety during construction and demolition was to be inaccordance with (among others) OSHA.

Not sure if we left it out of the new Codes intentionally for the reasons enumerated by everyone here, or if it was just expediant to be more in line with the I-Codes. At the most recent jobsite safety training I participated in, some specifics were covered, but basically told... If it doesn't look safe explain the problem to the Person In Responsible Charge, notify Dept of Labor or OSHA if it is really bad.

We've had several preventable trench collapse deaths in the region in the last couple of years; NYC had a series of fatal crane collapses last year; I've known of guys walking backward off a two story roof while shingling/sheathing; and on and on.

Bring the concerns to the attention of the foreman/PIRC/Contractor/Whoever. Contact the appropriate authority to enforce the safety regs.

 

[texasbo]

Re: Home Depot Crew

What is a rouge inspector? I've seen a lot of them red-faced when trying to enforce phantom codes. Is that what they mean by rouge inspector?

 

[High Desert]

Re: Home Depot Crew

Rick, a Statute is the law itself and an OAR is how that law is carried out. The ORS is essentially the scoping requirement and the OAR is the technical requirement. Kind of like the building codes. An OAR always has a guiding ORS.

 

[FyrBldgGuy]

Re: Home Depot Crew

Tiger, All things considered your question and thread stired up good debate. We all suffer from the decisions we make and sometimes we are not supported by the applicable code. That does not mean that we should not push to have the code changed or amended within our jurisdictions.

All these wonderful discussions about a timely subject without the need for residential sprinklers.

Tiger, if you still read the board you should know that everyone that expresses an opinion and stands up is likely to get a reaction. Go to any code officials meeting and be expressive and see what happens.

I hope that everyone that reads and participates gains from the experience.

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: Home Depot Crew

Rick, a Statute is the law itself and an OAR is how that law is carried out. The ORS is essentially the scoping requirement and the OAR is the technical requirement. Kind of like the building codes. An OAR always has a guiding ORS.

Yes it is but it is the statute and the text of the statutes that has higher weight. OAR is the 'policy' adopted to enforce the statutes. If the text of OAR is in conflict with the ORS text then ORS text rules. Hence why the building code does not win over statutes (the law). If there is a conflict between the text of the code and the text of the statutes (the law) - the statutes (the law) goes. Nothing in code may not nullify the provisions of the statutes (the law).

I agree. I've probably said it in another way and said it before even on the old ICC BB.

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: Home Depot Crew

Rick,I have absolutely zero hours of OSHA training. As such any effort on my part to enforce OSHA regs would be based on heresay information from others or conjecture on my part. I have absolutely zero interest in obtaining knowledge of OSHA regs. I will happily limit myself to issues which are clearly defined in the IBC and IRC. Just as only registered design professionals should perform engineering tasks, only trained and qualified OSHA inspectors should be performing OSHA inspections.

Doesn't OSHA provide a handbook to your department?

 

[incognito]

Re: Home Depot Crew

No and I would not take it if it was offered unless I was required to do so by law. A handbook without training is useless.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Re: Home Depot Crew

Rick,

I don't understand why you would think that Municipal Inspection Departments are responsible for enforcing OSHA regulations.

OSHA has it's own inspectors;

http://www.osha.gov/as/opa/osha-faq.html

Are you just trying to keep an arguement going? Do you really not understand that Building Inspectors do not have the authority to enforce OSHA regulations?

Uncle Bob

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: Home Depot Crew

Rick,I don't understand why you would think that Municipal Inspection Departments are responsible for enforcing OSHA regulations.

OSHA has it's own inspectors;

http://www.osha.gov/as/opa/osha-faq.html

Are you just trying to keep an arguement going? Do you really not understand that Building Inspectors do not have the authority to enforce OSHA regulations?

Uncle Bob

UB: Are you the kind of person who will turn a blind eye to a person robbing a bank and not call the police?

or

Are you the kind of person who will turn a blind eye to someone practicing architecture without a license and not report to the license board such violation because it is not your job?

 

[Uncle Bob]

Re: Home Depot Crew

Rick,

This is not a "morals subject". Here, we are discussing "legal" requirements and obligations of building inspectors. You have stated that you go to construction sites; where you have designed the building. Providing of course, that you are not blind; you have seen illegal immigrants working on the site. Did you call the Feds and fill out a report that your "client" was hiring illegal aliens, er sorry, undocumented workers? If you ever went to a nite club or bar; you saw drunk people stumble out and get in their car. Drunk drivers kill people and cause property damage. You did not call the police and wait for them to arrive and hollar "Citizen's Arrest, Citizen's Arrest".

You are trying to tell us; that because we are charged with enforcing building codes; that we are also responsible for enforcement of all Federal, State, and local laws that we see violated while we are at work.

Our duty and obligations are written in the code books. If we want to investigate and report violations; that we have no legal authority to enforce, while at work; we must do it on our own time; or look for a new job; because we will be fired.

I rather hope that you simply are trying to be arguementative; than to believe that you don't understand the difference.

Uncle Bob

 

[jar546]

Re: Home Depot Crew

None of you know this but in addition to my building career I spent 17 years working part-time as a paramedic, many of those years as a critical care flight paramedic on a trauma helicopter. It was my nights and weekends gig that started when the building industry first took a dump in the early 90's.

* I have watched a father slowly pass away from a trench collapse as we waited to get him out and only had his face/head exposed despite intubating him and ventilating him. The horror on the look of the family, inlcuding the children will never leave me.

* I have worked on more than one roofer who fell onto their head from a fall. Trying to help someone while unstoppable blood pours from their nose and ears while they gurgle on their own blood and dies is not a pretty site.

* I have taken care of men who had limbs and fingers cut off in industrial accidents caused by not adhereing to osha regulation. The pain and fear in their eyes cannot be forgotten.

* I have placed a sheet over many bodies awaiting a coroner because it was too late to many, many others who went to work in the morning to provide for their families.

If anyone thinks I won't say something to a construction supervisor or worker and/or call OSHA to report it, then you are wrong, DEAD wrong.

There is technicalities and legalities and there is a moral, ethical obligation to other humans that allow you to sleep at night.

 

[JBI]

Re: Home Depot Crew

2006 IBC Chapter 33

SECTION 3301 GENERAL

3301.1 Scope.

The provisions of this chapter shall govern safety during construction and the protection of adjacent public and private properties.

I'm not going to copy the whole chapter, but that is where (most of) you will find the requirements that are fully enforceable by the AHJ. There is a section on demolition as well.

As I stated previously, NYS at one time referenced OSHA regs in our old code.

We no longer do, but notifying the person in charge of the site that there are unsafe conditions is perfectly legal, reasonable and the responsible thing to do.

Notifying OSHA is a perfectly legal, reasonable and responsible thing to do.

There is no liability created, implied or otherwise, for pointing out one OSHA violation you are aware of and not pointing out one you are unaware of (unless of course you are in fact an OSHA inspector...).

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: Home Depot Crew

Rick,This is not a "morals subject". Here, we are discussing "legal" requirements and obligations of building inspectors. You have stated that you go to construction sites; where you have designed the building. Providing of course, that you are not blind; you have seen illegal immigrants working on the site. Did you call the Feds and fill out a report that your "client" was hiring illegal aliens, er sorry, undocumented workers? If you ever went to a nite club or bar; you saw drunk people stumble out and get in their car. Drunk drivers kill people and cause property damage. You did not call the police and wait for them to arrive and hollar "Citizen's Arrest, Citizen's Arrest".

You are trying to tell us; that because we are charged with enforcing building codes; that we are also responsible for enforcement of all Federal, State, and local laws that we see violated while we are at work.

Our duty and obligations are written in the code books. If we want to investigate and report violations; that we have no legal authority to enforce, while at work; we must do it on our own time; or look for a new job; because we will be fired.

I rather hope that you simply are trying to be arguementative; than to believe that you don't understand the difference.

Uncle Bob

Look at the section in IBC governing Stop Work Order. In the new 2009 clearly indicates - Whenever the building official finds any work regulated by this code being performed in a manner either contrary to the provisions of this code or dangerous or unsafe, the building official is authorized to issue a stop work order.

First, all work regarding construction of the building is obviously regulated by the code but also the OSHA regulations at the same time - so therefore if the work is being performed in an unsafe (OSHA non-compliant) or dangerous (not adhering to OSHA regulations while performing the work then you may issue a Stop Work Order. This can reach to more then just wildly cutting into trusses and beams.

Regarding the rest of what you said, not everything has to lead to arrest and citizen arrest is alot of latitude when things can be resolved without immediately reporting to law enforcement authorities in official charge over the manner. OSHA regulations regulates how work is to be performed in a safe manner. As a B.O. or inspector of a building, you are a form of a law enforcement authority and you have certain duties to ensure things are safe and it would be an endangerment to yourself and others to not take OSHA safety seriously as it pertains to work at hand and the safety surrounding you performing your inspection.

OSHA regulations does fall under the 'other pertinent laws and ordinances'. Of course, you don't have the authority to issue fines directly on OSHA violations however. You can issue a Stop Work Order and request things be brought into accordance with OSHA regulations and that an OSHA personnel has certified that it is compliant so that you may perform your work.

You're not going to be going up on the 9th or 10th floor of an steel frame office building under construction to inspect the steel framing without there being OSHA compliant fall arrest gear and other safety measures regulated by OSHA. It is where these regulations are incidentally "pertinent". You not primarily going to a job site for "inspecting" OSHA but you better darn well check for compliance prior to putting yourself at risk because YOU also have to follow OSHA regulations when inspecting. You don't go into a job site area without OSHA certified and approved gear, equipment, and other safety measures including hardhat certified for the environment of the work. There are rating systems for hard hats.

So, making sure it is compliant to extent feasible so that you can perform your work safely is the point.

Even OSHA isn't going to immediately fine for non-compliance. They may issue a warning to get things compliant and request corrective measures to be made. You just not going to allow work to move forward until you done your inspection and has had the opportunity to see if the structure is compliant with code. You have some latitude as it is incidental to your work. If you can see some obvious non-OSHA compliance then obviously you are not going to risk your life.

 

[RickAstoria]

Re: Home Depot Crew

2006 IBC Chapter 33SECTION 3301 GENERAL

3301.1 Scope.

The provisions of this chapter shall govern safety during construction and the protection of adjacent public and private properties.

I'm not going to copy the whole chapter, but that is where (most of) you will find the requirements that are fully enforceable by the AHJ. There is a section on demolition as well.

As I stated previously, NYS at one time referenced OSHA regs in our old code.

We no longer do, but notifying the person in charge of the site that there are unsafe conditions is perfectly legal, reasonable and the responsible thing to do.

Notifying OSHA is a perfectly legal, reasonable and responsible thing to do.

There is no liability created, implied or otherwise, for pointing out one OSHA violation you are aware of and not pointing out one you are unaware of (unless of course you are in fact an OSHA inspector...).

Absolutely agree. You can state that you have noticed this/these (OSHA violation/non-compliance) and there maybe other unnoticed conditions and will want them to bring construction site to full compliance and site then be certified by an OSHA inspector and then you'll go in and do your inspection for any code violations. From this moment until you (the Code Inspector) has completed inspection, you are issuing a Stop Work Order on the construction with exception of the needed work to bring site into OSHA compliance and certified by an OSHA inspector as fully compliant.

This is basically what you as a building inspector/building official can do. In other words, you are issuing a Stop Work Order so until you can complete your inspection and you are not going to begin / complete your inspection until the construction site (includes area of the building(s) and inside the building(s)) is OSHA compliant and certified by an OSHA inspector.

Does this sound like being an pain in the ***. Sure but you are pointing out these things which puts you at risk. You are not suppose to be working in an environment that is not OSHA compliant nor perform your inspection duty in a non-OSHA compliant manner either. You are just making sure that you are not putting yourself in harms way.

JD, I agree.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Re: Home Depot Crew

Rick,

And, all others that think that local building inspectors are required to enforce OSHA regulations, my part of this spitting contest; only refers to local building inspectors being required to enforce OSHA regulations; not, enforcement of adopted building codes.

Yes, we have regulations in the building codes that we enforce conserning saftey. My disagreement with Rick is that local building inspectors have no more authority to enforce OSHA regulations than a local cop has enforcing building codes.

The safety requirements of the codes are all we are charged with; not OSHA regulations.

Rick,

"You can issue a Stop Work Order and request things be brought into accordance with OSHA regulations and that an OSHA personnel has certified that it is compliant so that you may perform your work."

As a local building inspector; no, I can't! I cannot enforce OSHA regulations.

"YOU also have to follow OSHA regulations when inspecting."

No I don't; depending on what State I am working in;

States and Territories where State and Local Government Employees Are Not Covered by OSHA regulations

American Samoa, Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, District of Columbia, Delaware, Georgia, Guam, Idaho, Illinois, Kansas, Louisiana, Massachusetts, Maine, Missouri, Mississippi, Montana, North Dakota, Nebraska, New Hampshire, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Trust Territories of the Pacific, Texas, Wisconsin, West Virginia.

"State and local government workers are excluded from Federal coverage under the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 (the "OSH Act")."

http://www.osha.gov/dcsp/osp/public_sector.html

OSHA AND Federal ADA requirements are Federal laws and regulations enforced by Federal laws and regulators; not local building inspectors.

You keep stating that local Building Inspectors; not only have a legal right, but, a legal resposibility to enforce OSHA regulations; and that is not true.

Uncle Bob