R-2, fully sprinkled, single exit units, two exit building - bedroom windows?

[RLGA]

Ah ha! I think I may understand now. So Group R-2 are only required to have EERO if they only have one exit for the building? Is that correct?

Close, when they only have one exit from a story.

For further explanation, the 2009 IBC required all Group R occupancies to have EEROs, but if a building was sprinklered per NFPA 13 or 13R, the EEROs were not required (except for Group R-3). Therefore, since Section 903.2.8 required sprinklers in all Group R occupancies, then most Group R occupancies were exempt from the EEROs (Group R-3 and Group R occupancies using NFPA 13D still required the EEROs). However, if a building wanted stories with a single exit, then Table 1021.2 required that 3-story Group R-2s must have EEROs, even if they are sprinklered. So, in essence, the requirements of the 2012 IBC are just another way of restating what was required in the 2009 IBC.

In actuality, the 2012 IBC is more restrictive than the 2009 IBC, since Table 1021.2(1) of the 2012 IBC requires that the basement, first story and second story--in addition to the third story--have the EEROs. Table 1021.2 of the 2009 IBC, per Footnote 'c,' only required the EEROs when a building had a third story with a single exit--basements, first stories, and second stories, when the building did not have a third story, were not required to have the EEROs (Footnote 'c' is not indicated with the Group R or R-2 occupancies in the rows for those stories).

 

[arcitek]

Close, when they only have one exit from a story.For further explanation, the 2009 IBC required all Group R occupancies to have EEROs, but if a building was sprinklered per NFPA 13 or 13R, the EEROs were not required (except for Group R-3). Therefore, since Section 903.2.8 required sprinklers in all Group R occupancies, then most Group R occupancies were exempt from the EEROs (Group R-3 and Group R occupancies using NFPA 13D still required the EEROs). However, if a building wanted stories with a single exit, then Table 1021.2 required that 3-story Group R-2s must have EEROs, even if they are sprinklered. So, in essence, the requirements of the 2012 IBC are just another way of restating what was required in the 2009 IBC.

In actuality, the 2012 IBC is more restrictive than the 2009 IBC, since Table 1021.2(1) of the 2012 IBC requires that the basement, first story and second story--in addition to the third story--have the EEROs. Table 1021.2 of the 2009 IBC, per Footnote 'c,' only required the EEROs when a building had a third story with a single exit--basements, first stories, and second stories, when the building did not have a third story, were not required to have the EEROs (Footnote 'c' is not indicated with the Group R or R-2 occupancies in the rows for those stories).

Sorry I am dredging up an old post but I wanted to clarify something related to this subject. I have a similar 4-story R2 project that will be fully sprinklered so the egress window will not be a concern under the 2009 IBC. However, no one mentions anything about needing a window for natural light and ventilation? For the ventilation, we are doing central HVAC with make-up air so the ventilation part should be addressed. What I cannot locate for the life of me in the IBC is a reference to this 4% or 8% of floor space natural light requirement. I think the IRC has this clause but I did not think the IRC applied to multi-story R2 and R3, the IBC would apply. Any confirmation on this? Thanks!

 

[RLGA]

See Section 1205.2.

 

[arcitek]

See Section 1205.2.

Thanks, but Section 1205.3 says not required which was what I had thought before I came upon another thread where they were pushing the requirement. It is not ideal but we had done windowless offices and bedrooms before and I could not see why some were saying we had to have the windows.

 

[mtlogcabin]

1205.1 requires natural or artificial light

1205.2 gives you the reference of 8% for the minimum amount of natural light

1205.3 gives you the minimum amount average illumination (10 foot-candles) of allowable artificial light

It is the designers choice of what is provided

 

[kilitact]

"In addition to the means of egress required by this chapter, provisions shall be made for emergency escape and rescue openings in Group R-2 occupancies in accordance with Tables 1021.2(1) and 1021.2(2) and Group R-3 occupancies. Basements and sleeping rooms below the fourth story above grade plane shall have at least one exterior emergency escape and rescue opening in accordance with this section. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, emergency escape and rescue openings shall be required in each sleeping room, but shall not be required in adjoining areas of the basement. Such openings shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way".

Section 1029.1 tells you that you need emergency escape and rescue. Charging statement is that in addition to the means of egress required by this chapter..., this not an exception to the requirement.

 

[mtlogcabin]

Don't forget the exceptions to Section 1029.1 specifically #1 & #2

Exceptions:

1. In other than Group R-3 occupancies, buildings equipped throughout with an approved automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2.

2. In other than Group R-3 occupancies, sleeping rooms provided with a door to a fire-resistance-rated corridor having access to two remote exits in opposite directions.

3. The emergency escape and rescue opening is permitted to open onto a balcony within an atrium in accordance with the requirements of Section 404, provided the balcony provides access to an exit and the dwelling unit or sleeping unit has a means of egress that is not open to the atrium .

4. Basements with a ceiling height of less than 80 inches (2032 mm) shall not be required to have emergency escape and rescue windows.

5. High-rise buildings in accordance with Section 403.

6. Emergency escape and rescue openings are not required from basements or sleeping rooms that have an exit door or exit access door that opens directly into a public way or to a yard , court or exterior exit balcony that opens to a public way .

7. Basements without habitable spaces and having no more than 200 square feet (18.6 m2) in floor area shall not be required to have emergency escape windows.

 

[kilitact]

Don't forget the exceptions to Section 1029.1 specifically #1 & #2Exceptions:

1. In other than Group R-3 occupancies, buildings equipped throughout with an approved automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2.

2. In other than Group R-3 occupancies, sleeping rooms provided with a door to a fire-resistance-rated corridor having access to two remote exits in opposite directions.

3. The emergency escape and rescue opening is permitted to open onto a balcony within an atrium in accordance with the requirements of Section 404, provided the balcony provides access to an exit and the dwelling unit or sleeping unit has a means of egress that is not open to the atrium .

4. Basements with a ceiling height of less than 80 inches (2032 mm) shall not be required to have emergency escape and rescue windows.

5. High-rise buildings in accordance with Section 403.

6. Emergency escape and rescue openings are not required from basements or sleeping rooms that have an exit door or exit access door that opens directly into a public way or to a yard , court or exterior exit balcony that opens to a public way .

7. Basements without habitable spaces and having no more than 200 square feet (18.6 m2) in floor area shall not be required to have emergency escape windows.

You're apparently reading from the 2009?? I'm looking at the 2012-2014.

 

[cda]

You're apparently reading from the 2009?? I'm looking at the 2012-2014.

Hummmmmm,

I wonder if it is it one of those other "assumed sprinkled building" changes that did not pick up the exception, because the building is required to be sprinkled.

 

[kilitact]

Hummmmmm,I wonder if it is it one of those other "assumed sprinkled building" changes that did not pick up the exception, because the building is required to be sprinkled.

I don't think so, just reinstated what was previously taken out.

 

[mtlogcabin]

2009 is what arcitek referenced as to the code edition he is using

I never agreed with the 2009 exception for egress windows just because a sprinkler system is installed and am glad it is out of the 2012 editions

 

[cda]

2009 is what arcitek referenced as to the code edition he is usingI never agreed with the 2009 exception for egress windows just because a sprinkler system is installed and am glad it is out of the 2012 editions

So you want them in a 20 story hotel?

 

[mtlogcabin]

So you want them in a 20 story hotel?

Not required above the 3rd floor

Basements and sleeping rooms below the fourth story above grade plane shall have at least one exterior emergency escape and rescue opening in accordance with this section.

 

[kilitact]

2009 is what arcitek referenced as to the code edition he is usingI never agreed with the 2009 exception for egress windows just because a sprinkler system is installed and am glad it is out of the 2012 editions

camksu is the op and using the 2012. I agree it should have never been missed, taken out of the requirements.

 

[steveray]

2009 is what arcitek referenced as to the code edition he is usingI never agreed with the 2009 exception for egress windows just because a sprinkler system is installed and am glad it is out of the 2012 editions

Me too....We should be on 2012 early next year...

 

[jeffreygordon]

Hi, just joined the group and realizing I am a lot out of my leaque in regards to these code issues. I will apologize in advance for not really getting all the nuances to the codes and the terminology, but I have printed it out and am trying to work through it--you all earn your money in my mind!

We are a small developer doing our first 4 story apartment building in DC.

We are in very early on conceptual design and doing the work in house with a Plans Examiner Firm providing limited guidance.

We are under 2012 code and at our preliminary design review we were informed that since we did not have a recorded easement to use an existing rear walk way (been there 25+ years, just no one seems to have ever recorded any easements formalizing the walkway access--we expect to prove at least a prescriptive easement before we break ground) to an alleyway ("public way"?) the fire guy wanted us to have two means of egress stairs systems in the building. This was tough with only a 24' building width--chews up a lot of space.

I understand since we have no way to legally access the rear of the building with fire equipment then we needed to have a 2nd means of egress from the rear units on floors 1-3 since we could not use Emergency Escape through exterior windows/doors on the rear of the building etc.

I am curious though would we still be expected to provide EERO's in the rear units if the bedrooms were against the outside of the building--i.e. even though we have been required to add the 2nd stair way means of egress?

This is also a zero lot line lot so only natural light is at the east and west ends of the building. 6 weeks ago we toured a condo finished late 2014 that was permitted under the 2009IBC. That had the bedrooms against the interior common walls and the kitchen living rooms against the exterior walls where they could use the natural light rather than having it in the bedrooms only occupied in the night time.

We reviewed the 2009 and 2012 and asked our plans examiner for guidance regarding moving the bedrooms to the common walls when we had both full sprinkled building and two separate exits from each unit and two means of egress from the building. This guy has over 40 years of experience in the profession and had some difficulty in answering us so he eventually called ICC for an explanation.

this was his message to me including his conversation with the ICC interpretation;

"Today I spoke with Jeff from the code option section of the International Code Council. I told him I was confused about the circular reference between IBC section 2029 and table 1021.2(1) footnote ‘a’.

My confusion was, section 1029 requires egress windows but also reference table 1021.2(1) which addresses the number of exits from a floor. Footnote ‘a’ of the table specifically requires an egress window. I could find no specific exception to the requirement for egress windows.

Jeff explained, they received a lot of calls regarding this section. It seems in past codes there was a specific exception for egress windows when 2 exits were provided BUT the exception was being abused; some were using the table in 1021.2(1) to first reduce the required exits and then applying the exception in 1029 to exempt the egress window stating they were in compliance with the table. The specific exemption was removed and now it’s not as clear.

Jeff stated, it is the intent require the 2 exits either by one exit access and one egress windows OR 2 exit access. To be more clear, it was the intent to allow for exemption of emergency egress windows if two exits or exit access were provided."

So we thought good we can redesign he units and move the bedrooms into the interior common walls.

When we submitted the revised plans back into DC fire we didnt get very far. We were told things were fine but there was no emergency escape from the bedrooms.

So we submitted the quoted conversation above thinking we're fine.

but this is what we got back which has me even more appreciative of anybody who works with this stuff every day!

"They are confusing the issues. One issue is emergency escape from a sleeping room. The other is means of egress or exiting a floor. The two shall not be equated."

My plans examiner says the fire guy is wrong. I understand we can ask DC for an interpretation/ruling on a matter from ICC.

I sure could use some guidance here, and I promise to never get involved in code issues again!

thanks

jeff

 

[cda]

am curious though would we still be expected to provide EERO's in the rear units if the bedrooms were against the outside of the building--i.e. even though we have been required to add the 2nd stair way means of egress?

Under the 2012 yes unless the bedroom has a direct exterior door, the window is required.

 

[cda]

"""I sure could use some guidance here, and I promise to never get involved in code issues again!"""

Come on in the water's fine.

 

[cda]

Is the building official making the same comments??

It is more of a building code item, but have seen fire pick it up for various reasons, because the BO doesn't.

 

[cda]

So how many units are on each floor

Travel distance

Common path of egress distance

 

[jeffreygordon]

Is the building official making the same comments??It is more of a building code item, but have seen fire pick it up for various reasons, because the BO doesn't.

So far no, it is just the fire guy who has focused on it. I was looking at the condo projects plans over the weekend and in the code comments they

did not even address the issue. But, they do have sliding barn doors on the those interior bedrooms and I am wondering if they also were making them

"studio" in nature so they changed their classification from Bedrooms?

maybe I am do dumb, but we have a brand new building with two separate 2 hour stairs ways out of the building and two separate exits out of every unit and and sprinklers and we also have to have Emergency Escape Exits from the bedrooms on the outside wall when they already claim we can not reach the rear of the building?

i would rather sleep in that building during a fire than about 95% of the other bedrooms in DC!

j

 

[jeffreygordon]

Hey, I am willing to dive in, I just never appreciated how convoluted the building codes are--everything these days seems to need an expensive interpreter to understand what is being said. I guess that is fine, full employment for pros, but makes it easy to understand why housing in dc exceeds $600/sf.

 

[jeffreygordon]

two units on each floor. total of 8 in building.

travel distance max is under 37' from bedrooms and maximum 46' from anywhere in unit.

not sure what the common path of egress distance is, will have to look it up and report back.

thanks

j

 

[jeffreygordon]

am curious though would we still be expected to provide EERO's in the rear units if the bedrooms were against the outside of the building--i.e. even though we have been required to add the 2nd stair way means of egress? Under the 2012 yes unless the bedroom has a direct exterior door, the window is required.

so we have to add the 2nd means of egress stair system because no access to the rear of the building and we would still have to have the EERO's if the bedrooms are against the exterior wall? I must be missing something here, these are 7 x 11 rooms, is 5.5' feet really going to make a difference in escaping a fire?