R-2, fully sprinkled, single exit units, two exit building - bedroom windows?

[jeffreygordon]

So how many units are on each floor 2 per floor 8 totalTravel distance 36' from bedrooms and 46 max from unit

Common path of egress distance

not sure what that is, will have to look it up and get back to you. building is 24 x 93.

 

[jeffreygordon]

Our focus is getting into a design review hearing to determine if we can get 100% relief for parking variance. So our focus has been on getting the exterior of the building approved by the zoning commission with an understanding that we can fine tune the interior floor plans after we get the approval to build without parking on this narrow deep lot etc.

We assume we will be able to resolve the lack of rear alley access to the "Public Way" through either a negotiated easement or a prescriptive easement after we get through design review. We also assume we are going to hire a local architect with MF experience to developer our building permit plan package etc..

So right now we are just trying to get through the conceptual review process with DC fire/Bldg. etc so we can get a referral to the Zoning Commission for the design review hearing. It is a Maverick approach but for our first project we are in the dirt a about 20% of its market value so we are trying to keep our development costs minimized until we get the parking variance etc.

I have been looking at other way to fulfill the emergency escape requirement from the room and am a little confused about whether something as simple as a door through and adjacent bedroom would make our DC fire guy happy--i see some restrictions about passing through bedrooms/bathrooms etc., but it is not clear if those are in the same unit or separate units etc.

I sure appreciate the feedback and questions folks, the confusion is a bit mind boggling to me, my plans examiner guy says things have gotten a bit out of hand with "vested interests" playing a part in the entire process. makes me want to go spend some time working on my Stancraft boat project and "feel" the wood with my hands as it is shaped to a thing of beauty!

thanks

j

 

[cda]

So far no, it is just the fire guy who has focused on it. I was looking at the condo projects plans over the weekend and in the code comments theydid not even address the issue. But, they do have sliding barn doors on the those interior bedrooms and I am wondering if they also were making them

"studio" in nature so they changed their classification from Bedrooms?

maybe I am do dumb, but we have a brand new building with two separate 2 hour stairs ways out of the building and two separate exits out of every unit and and sprinklers and we also have to have Emergency Escape Exits from the bedrooms on the outside wall when they already claim we can not reach the rear of the building?

i would rather sleep in that building during a fire than about 95% of the other bedrooms in DC!

j

Getting a little lost on all this

Sounds like the only thing missing is a window in the bedroom??

Or is the problem the bedroom does not have an exterior wall to put the window in??

 

[cda]

so we have to add the 2nd means of egress stair system because no access to the rear of the building and we would still have to have the EERO's if the bedrooms are against the exterior wall? I must be missing something here, these are 7 x 11 rooms, is 5.5' feet really going to make a difference in escaping a fire?

Possibly to the person in the bedroom, when the rest of the apartment is on fire.

Yes your building has sprinklers

 

[cda]

I have been looking at other way to fulfill the emergency escape requirement from the room and am a little confused about whether something as simple as a door through and adjacent bedroom would make our DC fire guy happy--i see some restrictions about passing through bedrooms/bathrooms etc., but it is not clear if those are in the same unit or separate units etc.

Same question again

The bedroom you want to have go through another bedroom,,,

Has no exterior wall???

 

[cda]

It does not sound with the 2nd exit and bedroom windows,,,

That they are asking for anything that has been in the code books, for years

 

[jeffreygordon]

Getting a little lost on all thisSounds like the only thing missing is a window in the bedroom??

Or is the problem the bedroom does not have an exterior wall to put the window in??

yeah, the issue is that the bedrooms are against and interior common wall and not against the outside wall,

so no exterior wall.

thanks

 

[cda]

Yep, you have a problem

Make that room something else, or is the problem can't get two bedrooms on any of the exterior walls

 

[jeffreygordon]

Yep, you have a problemMake that room something else, or is the problem can't get two bedrooms on any of the exterior walls

here is the floor plan he didnt like.

http://dcstadiumdistrict.com/new-project-in-dcsd/

here is the 2014 condo project they approved under the 2009 Code

http://dcstadiumdistrict.com/condos-approve/

Well I guess we talk to our plans examiner consultant and the ICC guy he spoke with and then the DC fire guy, and see how we go forward from here.

I appreciate the help folks, but I am even more confused now.

 

[cda]

Request to design to 2009

SECTION 1029 EMERGENCY ESCAPE AND RESCUE

1029.1 General. In addition to the means of egress required by this chapter, provisions shall be made for emergency escape and rescue in Group R and I-1 occupancies. Basements and sleeping rooms below the fourth story above grade plane shall have at least one exterior emergency escape and rescue opening in accordance with this section. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, emergency escape and rescue openings shall be required in each sleeping room, but shall not be required in adjoining areas of the basement. Such openings shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.

Exceptions:

1. In other than Group R-3 occupancies, buildings equipped throughout with an approved automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2.

2. In other than Group R-3 occupancies, sleeping rooms provided with a door to a fire-resistance-rated corridor having access to two remote exits in opposite directions.

3. The emergency escape and rescue opening is permitted to open onto a balcony within an atrium in accordance with the requirements of Section 404, provided the balcony provides access to an exit and the dwelling unit or sleeping unit has a means of egress that is not open to the atrium.

4. Basements with a ceiling height of less than 80 inches (2032 mm) shall not be required to have emergency escape and rescue windows.

5. High-rise buildings in accordance with Section 403.

6. Emergency escape and rescue openings are not required from basements or sleeping rooms that have an exit door or exit access door that opens directly into a public way or to a yard, court or exterior exit balcony that opens to a public way.

7. Basements without habitable spaces and having no more than 200 square feet (18.6 m2) in floor area shall not be required to have emergency escape windows.

 

[jeffreygordon]

Request to design to 2009SECTION 1029 EMERGENCY ESCAPE AND RESCUE

1029.1 General. In addition to the means of egress required by this chapter, provisions shall be made for emergency escape and rescue in Group R and I-1 occupancies. Basements and sleeping rooms below the fourth story above grade plane shall have at least one exterior emergency escape and rescue opening in accordance with this section. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, emergency escape and rescue openings shall be required in each sleeping room, but shall not be required in adjoining areas of the basement. Such openings shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.

Exceptions:

1. In other than Group R-3 occupancies, buildings equipped throughout with an approved automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2.

2. In other than Group R-3 occupancies, sleeping rooms provided with a door to a fire-resistance-rated corridor having access to two remote exits in opposite directions.

3. The emergency escape and rescue opening is permitted to open onto a balcony within an atrium in accordance with the requirements of Section 404, provided the balcony provides access to an exit and the dwelling unit or sleeping unit has a means of egress that is not open to the atrium.

4. Basements with a ceiling height of less than 80 inches (2032 mm) shall not be required to have emergency escape and rescue windows.

5. High-rise buildings in accordance with Section 403.

6. Emergency escape and rescue openings are not required from basements or sleeping rooms that have an exit door or exit access door that opens directly into a public way or to a yard, court or exterior exit balcony that opens to a public way.

7. Basements without habitable spaces and having no more than 200 square feet (18.6 m2) in floor area shall not be required to have emergency escape windows.

Thanks CDA, is that a viable option or just a comment about how clueless I am

 

[cda]

Thanks CDA, is that a viable option or just a comment about how clueless I am

Why both off course

Naw sorry it is Monday

Yes if the AHJ will accept it, either as an alternative design or (((other recognized code will need to find a code reference for this)

A] 104.11 Alternative materials, design and methods of construction and equipment.

The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any material or to prohibit any design or method of construction not specifically prescribed by this code, provided that any such alternative has been approved. An alternative material, design or method of construction shall be approved where the building official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provisions of this code, and that the material, method or work offered is, for the purpose intended, at least the equivalent of that prescribed in this code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire resistance, durability and safety.

 

[jeffreygordon]

Why both off courseNaw sorry it is Monday

Yes if the AHJ will accept it, either as an alternative design or (((other recognized code will need to find a code reference for this)

A] 104.11 Alternative materials, design and methods of construction and equipment.

The provisions of this code are not intended to prevent the installation of any material or to prohibit any design or method of construction not specifically prescribed by this code, provided that any such alternative has been approved. An alternative material, design or method of construction shall be approved where the building official finds that the proposed design is satisfactory and complies with the intent of the provisions of this code, and that the material, method or work offered is, for the purpose intended, at least the equivalent of that prescribed in this code in quality, strength, effectiveness, fire resistance, durability and safety.

Thanks we will give it a look and see how he responds.

 

[mtlogcabin]

You have a 4 story building therefore 2 exits (stairs) are required from each floor. Since you have two exits then EERO's are not required under 1029.1

See RGLA response in post #13

I just went through this on another project. Section 1029.1 states, in significant part, that EEROs are required "in Group R-2 occupancies in accordance with Tables 1021.2(1) and 1021.2(2)..."If the Group R-2 is provided with only one exit from a story, then the EEROs are required per Footnote 'a' of Table 1021.2(1). If a Group R-2 has two exits from the story, then EEROs are not required. Individual dwelling units within the story of a Group R-2 are permitted to have one exit access doorway per Table 1015.1 if the occupant load of the dwelling unit does not exceed 10.

This is all from the 2012 IBC.

The Tables refer to stories with one exit. Time to educate the Fire Department Guy.

PS

I personally do not like it nor do I agree with it. However, it is the code

 

[cda]

You have a 4 story building therefore 2 exits (stairs) are required from each floor. Since you have two exits then EERO's are not required under 1029.1See RGLA response in post #13

The Tables refer to stories with one exit. Time to educate the Fire Department Guy.

PS

I personally do not like it nor do I agree with it. However, it is the code

I still do not understand how providing two exits gets you out of the window requirement

 

[jeffreygordon]

CDA if your confused, imagine how I feel!

 

[jeffreygordon]

MtLogCabin, thanks your thoughts seem to jibe with our code guys' thoughts today.

btw I can appreciate you might not like the code, I just want to move on this has been a very enlightening experience--you all are definitely worth whatever you get paid to work with this stuff every day!

Well, I guess it is time to have my guy call the fire guy! I sure am not up to the task of educating the DC fire guy!

here is the email my 40 year building code professional sent to me this afternoon regarding his continued quest to salve my stress over this issue!

"So, I made a second call to ICC and talked to Chris this time. Chris affirmed that many are confused about the new language in 1029. The short answer is;

The Emergency Escape window is only require if when the floor only has one exit. In other words, if you are trying to apply table 1021(1) or 1021(2) (one exit floors) then an emergency escape window is required.

The language in the 2009 code was much clearer. Since the 2012 code required all R-2 occupancies to be sprinklered, the language in 1029.1 changed and is very confusing now.

Below is the language of the 2009 code.

2009 IBC

1029.1 General.

In addition to the means of egress required by this chapter, provisions shall be made for emergency escape and rescue in Group R and I-1 occupancies. Basements and sleeping rooms below the fourth story above grade plane shall have at least one exterior emergency escape and rescue opening in accordance with this section. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, emergency escape and rescue openings shall be required in each sleeping room, but shall not be required in adjoining areas of the basement. Such openings shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way .

Exceptions:

1. In other than Group R-3 occupancies, buildings equipped throughout with an approved automatic sprinkler system in accordance with Section 903.3.1.1 or 903.3.1.2.

2. In other than Group R-3 occupancies, sleeping rooms provided with a door to a fire-resistance-rated corridor having access to two remote exits in opposite directions.

3. The emergency escape and rescue opening is permitted to open onto a balcony within an atrium in accordance with the requirements of Section 404, provided the balcony provides access to an exit and the dwelling unit or sleeping unit has a means of egress that is not open to the atrium .

4. Basements with a ceiling height of less than 80 inches (2032 mm) shall not be required to have emergency escape and rescue windows.

5. High-rise buildings in accordance with Section 403.

6. Emergency escape and rescue openings are not required from basements or sleeping rooms that have an exit door or exit access door that opens directly into a public way or to a yard , court or exterior exit balcony that opens to a public way .

7. Basements without habitable spaces and having no more than 200 square feet (18.6 m2) in floor area shall not be required to have emergency escape windows.

2012 IBC

1029.1 General.

In addition to the means of egress required by this chapter, provisions shall be made for emergency escape and rescue openings in Group R-2 occupancies in accordance with Tables 1021.2(1) and 1021.2(2) and Group R-3 occupancies. Basements and sleeping rooms below the fourth story above grade plane shall have at least one exterior emergency escape and rescue opening in accordance with this section. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, emergency escape and rescue openings shall be required in each sleeping room, but shall not be required in adjoining areas of the basement. Such openings shall open directly into a public way or to a yard or court that opens to a public way. (ICC states that table 1021.2(1) applies to R-2 occupancies were stories have only one exit and if you are not trying to apply this table by using just one exit from a floor, then the egress window required in footnote a would not be required. That’s why the table is referenced in the charging language. To restate, the egress windows are required in accordance with table 1021.2(1), this table requires the egress window when only one exit is being provided from a story. If more than one exit is provided from a story then there is no need for the table and the footnote in the table.)

Exceptions:

1. Basements with a ceiling height of less than 80 inches (2032 mm) shall not be required to have emergency escape and rescue openings.

2. Emergency escape and rescue openings are not required from basements or sleeping rooms that have an exit door or exit access door that opens directly into a public way or to a yard, court or exterior exit balcony that opens to a public way.

3. Basements without habitable spaces and having no more than 200 square feet (18.6 m2) in floor area shall not be required to have emergency escape and rescue openings.

 

[cda]

Just make sure you hit all the maximum travel distances..

Just wonder what good are two exits, if you cannot get out of the apartment to them.

 

[jeffreygordon]

Just make sure you hit all the maximum travel distances..Just wonder what good are two exits, if you cannot get out of the apartment to them.

the terminology is a bit of challenge still.

thanks CDA, at least one good thing about this exercise is that I am starting to accrue the lingo,

not sure I get the common path exactly, but think i get the jist of it, now a new one Maximum travel

distance to look up.

I sure appreciate your feedback!!

j

 

[cda]

the terminology is a bit of challenge still. thanks CDA, at least one good thing about this exercise is that I am starting to accrue the lingo,

not sure I get the common path exactly, but think i get the jist of it, now a new one Maximum travel

distance to look up.

I sure appreciate your feedback!!

j

Do I have to draw you pictures?? I know someone had to do it for me!!;

 

[ADAguy]

Are there buildings with zero lot lines on both sides of the building?

 

[jeffreygordon]

Are there buildings with zero lot lines on both sides of the building?

The assumption is that yes there will be at some point in the future, we are building lot line to lot line and the parcels on each side are zoned to 90' in a mixed use zone.

j

 

[SCBO1]

Is IBC section 1205, lighting, being meet?

Going with the artificial light I suspect?

 

[jeffreygordon]

Is IBC section 1205, lighting, being meet?

Going with the artificial light I suspect?

actually the bedrooms all have "relight" windows along the top of the walls to let in natural light from the exterior windows.

thanks