jar546
Forum Coordinator
You beat me to the punch on this one.
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Reason #1 to be 100% paperless with online on permit applications
- Thread starter jar546
- Start date
ICE
Oh Well
What size is your jurisdiction? I appreciate that your system has such robust functionality. However: Southern California has more than 100 jurisdictions with LA County being the largest in the nation. What we have is nothing like what you enjoy. And to be honest I must say that writing corrections on a slip has an intimacy that's lacking with "See you on the flip side".
Perhaps during the Millennium there will come a day when your situation is universal.
Here is a snippet of how it works...or doesn't depending on your expectations.
You are there for a framing inspection with your IPad. The contractor asks about an electrical inspection. Sorry but the office person that loads the day's inspections didn't include electrical inspection. You can't open the electrical permit in the field so if you do an electrical inspection there's no place to enter the result. Contractor, "I asked for an electrical inspection" ....You, "Who did you talk to?" ...Contractor, "The permit tech." ....You, "Wrong again, you can only request inspections via email. No phone requests allowed".
There is a request for framing and MEP. The job is a mess and each trade has a butt load of corrections. Each permit has to be opened so that the corrections are attached to the individual permits. It can take a long time for the permit to open. Then each permit gets an email sent. There's more to sending emails than pushing a button....a lot more.
If the last inspection was not resolved in the program you go nowhere. If you don't have a good signal you go nowhere. If you forgot to charge the battery, you go....wait for it....nowhere.
What you guys have sounds wonderful. Jeff blabbers into an IPad and wala he's a hero. Tmurray can tell you what the contractor had for breakfast.
I have said it many times and it is worth repeating. The forum is not a reflection of what happens in the wild. It's just not. You guys care too much.
Last edited:
Yikes
Gold Member
I was using ePlan when it first came out submitting a project in another state 800 miles away. I would upload files, click OK, and it would say it was uploaded successfully. But the city kept saying no submittal was achieved. I would call the city and walk through it, but their software interface looked different than what the city sees, so they couldn't help me.
Finally I set up an appointment with the city, flew out there with my laptop, sat down with the building official and the plans coordinator, and walked through it with them so that they saw what I saw when I tried to submit.
It turned out that if you scrolled waaaaaaay down the screen after the getting confirmation "Upload Successful!" , there was another small button where you had to also agree again to the terms and conditions, and only after that was it considered formally submitted.
The other thing we found out was that the city had the software set up so that the plans coordinator, basically the least construction-savvy administrative assistant, had been placed in charge of digitally routing the plans, and only she knew that aspect of the software. If she was out sick for the week, no one else knew how to make it route the plans to the plan checker or building official.
Finally I set up an appointment with the city, flew out there with my laptop, sat down with the building official and the plans coordinator, and walked through it with them so that they saw what I saw when I tried to submit.
It turned out that if you scrolled waaaaaaay down the screen after the getting confirmation "Upload Successful!" , there was another small button where you had to also agree again to the terms and conditions, and only after that was it considered formally submitted.
The other thing we found out was that the city had the software set up so that the plans coordinator, basically the least construction-savvy administrative assistant, had been placed in charge of digitally routing the plans, and only she knew that aspect of the software. If she was out sick for the week, no one else knew how to make it route the plans to the plan checker or building official.
jar546
Forum Coordinator
Permitting software has come a long way. A very long way. There are a lot of players in the game now and it is getting very competitive. The level of reliability, usability, and ease to which software has progressed is actually astounding. Web-based programs are the new normal.
What I can tell you is that 99% of the contractors (closer to 100%) are super happy about the online permitting software, 100% of the inspectors are and now the property owners are really on-board since because of the ease and transparency. When I show a new inspector the app and tell them they have it on their phone and can inspect and report in real-time, they are thrilled. When you finish you last inspection for the day, you are done. No sitting in your car or at a desk trying to remember what you saw where. You are done.
The office staff loves it too. Inspections are in real-time so reinspection fees are added automatically before contractors try to schedule another inspection. Contractors get an email telling them the inspection was completed and as the permit moves through the process, everyone is notified or can log on to their account and see it.
Those that use good permitting software love it. Those that don't have permitting software tell us why it won't work.
What I can tell you is that 99% of the contractors (closer to 100%) are super happy about the online permitting software, 100% of the inspectors are and now the property owners are really on-board since because of the ease and transparency. When I show a new inspector the app and tell them they have it on their phone and can inspect and report in real-time, they are thrilled. When you finish you last inspection for the day, you are done. No sitting in your car or at a desk trying to remember what you saw where. You are done.
The office staff loves it too. Inspections are in real-time so reinspection fees are added automatically before contractors try to schedule another inspection. Contractors get an email telling them the inspection was completed and as the permit moves through the process, everyone is notified or can log on to their account and see it.
Those that use good permitting software love it. Those that don't have permitting software tell us why it won't work.
Yikes
Gold Member
Anecdote #2:
Today I was trying to get an online submittal plan checked on a city here in So Cal. In the past, with physical plans, you could set up an appointment or talk to a real person to walk them through the plans. This time, you can only make comments in specific ways within their system, and you can't talk to them directly.
My problem is that our plan checker keeps looking at the original submittal instead of the backcheck submittal. We keep trying to tell him that he's reading the old file, but even though the new file is sitting there in their system, he's somehow looking at the wrong one, and there's no way to send him a special alert about his mistake.
The frustration is palpable.
Automated digital distribution of plans is only as good as the training that accompanies it. An a super-clean graphical interface can inadvertently make things look more organized than they really are.
Used in the right way, it's a powerful tool; used incorrectly, it efficiently screws things up worse.
Today I was trying to get an online submittal plan checked on a city here in So Cal. In the past, with physical plans, you could set up an appointment or talk to a real person to walk them through the plans. This time, you can only make comments in specific ways within their system, and you can't talk to them directly.
My problem is that our plan checker keeps looking at the original submittal instead of the backcheck submittal. We keep trying to tell him that he's reading the old file, but even though the new file is sitting there in their system, he's somehow looking at the wrong one, and there's no way to send him a special alert about his mistake.
The frustration is palpable.
Automated digital distribution of plans is only as good as the training that accompanies it. An a super-clean graphical interface can inadvertently make things look more organized than they really are.
Used in the right way, it's a powerful tool; used incorrectly, it efficiently screws things up worse.
jar546
Forum Coordinator
We still have in-person meetings, pre-app or pre-construction, whichever people request. I am not sure how online permitting would change the in-person interaction without a policy change in the department. That is not a software problem, that is a policy problem.
Our software does reviews in versions so you have to go out of your way to go into the system to look at an old version. I can't count the number of times a contractor kept uploading the wrong file thinking it was the new file from the architect and telling us we were looking at the wrong file. Maybe, if they would name the files appropriately, that would not happen. Sometimes it is easier to have the RDP upload the plans.
ICE
Oh Well
Hold on a minute….how does that square with a 100% of the contractors loving it. So There’s 100% with great software loving it and then there’s the 100% without software that tell you why it won’t work….There’s another 100%….those with lousy software. Can you see that all can be correct? Just because it works for you….that is not evidence that it works anywhere else.
klarenbeek
Silver Member
Started as an inspector in 2004 and almost everything was paper. we did have a green screen 1980s file storage database for permits and inspections, input fields were for the most part limited to 50 characters. Inspection requests were taken on 4x8 preprinted yellow pads that we then took out and did our notes on. You had to be careful with them on a windy day. Notes were transferred to permanent paper files, then office staff entered that file into the database. Because of the time lag, we had almost daily calls from the office if we were done at such and such an address because they were closing. Population about 140,000.
Fast forward to today 100 % paperless. Inspections are entered as they come in in the permits and are available to see in real time for all system users. Inspectors use an iPad in the field with an inspection app that immediately sends the input to the main system when the inspector hits "Done". Two more clicks and an email is sent to the contractor. We still call the contractor if there are corrections and leave a tag at the rough in stage with any corrections written on the back. Pictures can be taken and attached in seconds. The inspectors can also remote in to the main system using their iPads. When Covid hit all of the inspectors worked from home and no one came into the office for a few months. We started doing virtual inspections using FaceTime for certain types of inspections but not all. It worked so well the inspectors are still working from home and we are still doing Facetime inspections. Saves a lot of time and gas money too. We reserve the right to require an onsite inspection if needed.
All contractors have the ability to see the status of any of their permits on line. Within seconds of the inspector hitting "Done" on the iPad, the contractor can see the current live status of their project. The can apply for permits, pay invoices and request inspections online. They can also come into the office or pick up the phone and call old school if they want. Current population just over 200,00
No system is perfect, but the 2022 version beats the 2004 version every day of the week.
jar546
Forum Coordinator
100% of the contractors love it. They can apply for a permit while home drunk sitting in their underwear at 2am on a Sunday morning. They don't have to drive and wait in line just to be told there is a problem with their paperwork and we won't accept it. Some hire permit runners to handle all of their paperwork, some do it themselves. The only complaint from contractors is that they can't lie to their customers anymore and blame delays on the building department. When they make a mistake and upload the wrong document, they can fix the problem with a few clicks of the mouse rather than stop working to drive back to the building department.
Yikes
Gold Member
I'm saying the 2022 version always looks like it is beating the 2004 version. The reality depends on how it is implemented/managed in the building department.
In the example I gave where a permit technician is out sick for the week, in 2004 you would see plans piling up on someone's desk and know you've got a problem.
In 2022, unless you've got a manager who knows how access the system and read reports, the problem can remain hidden.
I'm not advocating for staying with paper submittals, I'm advocating for not allowing ourselves to outsource diligence just because the software salesperson claimed it would solve all problems.
ICE
Oh Well
My thick skin and your brass balls can lead to contentious discourse. That’s a good thing. People need to see that your pie in the sky existence is the exception to the rule.
tmurray
SAWHORSE
That is more of a statement of incompentant management and/or poor change management that the systems themselves.
Bad tools do exist, but so to do idiots using good tools poorly.
klarenbeek
Silver Member
klarenbeek
Silver Member
Oops, posted the quote without the reply...
You're absolutely right. It didn't happen overnight and not without growing pains. It was a process getting where we are now. You can't just flip the switch expect everything to be better. It took planning and we did it in incremental steps. Some of the first ones were kind of piecemeal additions to the existing system, then about 9 years ago we made the switch to a completely different software system that we still use (updated versions of it though). And i know we have the luxury of being a somewhat larger department in a medium municipality that has seen fairly steady fast(ish) growth since the late 1980s.
You do need to find what works best for you, but don't be afraid to make changes because a few people may complain. You'll NEVER be able to satisfy everyone. Comes with any form of public service.
You're absolutely right. It didn't happen overnight and not without growing pains. It was a process getting where we are now. You can't just flip the switch expect everything to be better. It took planning and we did it in incremental steps. Some of the first ones were kind of piecemeal additions to the existing system, then about 9 years ago we made the switch to a completely different software system that we still use (updated versions of it though). And i know we have the luxury of being a somewhat larger department in a medium municipality that has seen fairly steady fast(ish) growth since the late 1980s.
You do need to find what works best for you, but don't be afraid to make changes because a few people may complain. You'll NEVER be able to satisfy everyone. Comes with any form of public service.
jar546
Forum Coordinator
Since we are talking local government here, there are rules. Different options are pitched to the municipality by the software companies, referrals are given, trips are taken to see the products in action and talk with current users, there is a bidding process. You kind of make it sound like a snake oil salesman walks into a municipality and promises to fix all their problems. Maybe a little credit to those making decisions is due here.
Yikes
Gold Member
On a related Luddite note, Facebook just shared this "memory" from 10 years ago, 12/21/2012:
The end of an era - today is the last day the LA Building Dept. uses the blue carbon paper to make a "carbon copy" of their building permit receipts.
For my young Facebook friends, that's where the "cc" comes from on emails.
For my even younger Facebook friends, "email" is how people sent text messages after the era of smoke signals and telegrams and faxes, but before mobile phones.
The end of an era - today is the last day the LA Building Dept. uses the blue carbon paper to make a "carbon copy" of their building permit receipts.
For my young Facebook friends, that's where the "cc" comes from on emails.
For my even younger Facebook friends, "email" is how people sent text messages after the era of smoke signals and telegrams and faxes, but before mobile phones.
klarenbeek
Silver Member
Its a matter of looking at the inbox on the computer, not to inbox on the corner of the desk. Things will get lost in either system if not managed well...
Yikes
Gold Member
I’m not saying the software won’t do what it promised. I’m saying that many of the users have become accustomed to other software in their lives that has been refined to the extent that not much learning is needed, as it will autocorrect suggestions, etc. The software allows us to outsource our diligence. But if you take that same attitude and apply it specialized enterprise software, be prepared for unintended consequences.
By the way, the same holds true on the contractor side with ProCore, or on the design side with Revit, etc.
Example: I have staff that will use the Revit stair modeling feature, and it automatically pops the handrails into place, but with no extensions. You have to go the extra step of extending the handrails for ADA compliance at landings. But our younger staff is accustomed to software doing extra steps for them, so they see the stair, see the handrail, and think “I’m done!” - - they forget to check the code for extensions. Next thing you know, they modeled a door where the extension should have gone, and the landing is too short, etc.
Older staff that first learned to draw handrails separately (in AutoCAD, or by hand) don’t have the problem of remembering to check for extensions.
ICE
Oh Well
When things go right it's an accident.....when things go wrong....well then you get all of the credit.
Inspector Gadget
Registered User
You do NOT want me handwriting stuff - especially since my thumb did a dance with a table saw.
My hand-written notes were notoriously illegible before the mishap, and they didn't improve ... let's just say that.
I second this. I had a metric crapton of site notes to make - fire-stop issues on a large two-storey college. I did a series of voice-to-text notes and dagnabbit, the thing actually did a pretty decent job of transcribing everything. Went to the truck, transferred the note to the laptop, edited a few things, and voila - instant report.
tmurray
SAWHORSE
See ICE? if an old guy like this can benefit from technology so can you!
Inspector Gadget
Registered User
I'm a gen-X spirit in a Boomer-adjacent body.