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subject to damage?

ICE said:
That metal pipe carries air. Further on down the line, the pipe will carry water....and other stuff. It is not likely to become energized and therefor it is not required to be bonded.250.104(B) Other Metal Piping.

Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized...
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"Likely to become energized" One of the poorest and vague stipulation to be used by the NEC.

This galvanized vent can be energized by several different means, frayed wiring in contact, underground high voltage transient, lightning strike, ground or air terminal through roof. All metal piping should be bonded together.
 
ICE said:
That metal pipe carries air. Further on down the line, the pipe will carry water....and other stuff. It is not likely to become energized and therefor it is not required to be bonded.250.104(B) Other Metal Piping.

Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized...
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250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel. (A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).

This pipe is part of the waste water system and is required to be bonded period. The section does not say potable water it only says water system.

If there is 10 feet or more in contact with earth then it is also an electrode.

Likely to be energized has nothing to do with the bonding of this pipe.
 
mjf said:
So the code really means nothing?? Inspectors here require the end of the electrode to be below grade. Is it nit-picking? Maybe. The NEC either matters or it doesn't.
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below grade if under dirt so a shovel of dirt and it is below grade
 
jwelectric said:
250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel. (A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).

This pipe is part of the waste water system and is required to be bonded period. The section does not say potable water it only says water system.

If there is 10 feet or more in contact with earth then it is also an electrode.

Likely to be energized has nothing to do with the bonding of this pipe.
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I would list the cast iron in the ground attached to the metal DWV inside the structure would come under 250.52 (A) (8)

(8) Other Local Metal Underground Systems or Structures. Other local metal underground systems or structures such as piping systems, underground tanks, and underground metal well casings that are not bonded to a metal water pipe.
 
jwelectric said:
250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel. (A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.

(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).

This pipe is part of the waste water system and is required to be bonded period. The section does not say potable water it only says water system.

If there is 10 feet or more in contact with earth then it is also an electrode.

Likely to be energized has nothing to do with the bonding of this pipe.
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JW, I thought you were the one saying sprinkler pipes did not need to be bonded and that there was no need to bond a water piping system beyond the first insulation joint (like the water heater)
 
jwelectric said:
below grade if under dirt so a shovel of dirt and it is below grade
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I will have to respectfully disagree. I'd either drive the rod home or bring the grade in the planter up above the electrode. A shovel full of dirt wouldn't cut it:D
 
gfretwell said:
JW, I thought you were the one saying sprinkler pipes did not need to be bonded and that there was no need to bond a water piping system beyond the first insulation joint (like the water heater)
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I am sorry but I don’t see the comparison between a sprinkler and a metal waste pipe. 250.52(A)(8) requires it to be used as an electrode and 250.104(A)(1) requires it to be bonded at some accessible point. There is no requirement to bond at a water heater to be found anywhere in the NEC.

NFPA document Standard 13 forbids the use of a sprinkler system as an electrode.

Now explain just what your point was so a poor old back woods county boy like me can understand, please.
 
mjf said:
I will have to respectfully disagree. I'd either drive the rod home or bring the grade in the planter up above the electrode. A shovel full of dirt wouldn't cut it:D
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(G) Rod and Pipe Electrodes. The electrode shall be installed such that at least 2.44 m (8 ft) of length is in contact with the soil. It shall be driven to a depth of not less than 2.44 m (8 ft) except that, where rock bottom is encountered, the electrode shall be driven at an oblique angle not to exceed 45 degrees from the vertical or, where rock bottom is encountered at an angle up to 45 degrees, the electrode shall be permitted to be buried in a trench that is at least 750 mm (30 in.) deep. The upper end of the electrode shall be flush with or below ground level unless the aboveground end and the grounding electrode conductor attachment are protected against physical damage as specified in 250.10.

I am sorry but I can't see a requirement for the soil to be level all around the electrode.

Disagreements are good as someone has a chance to learn things
 
A sprinkler is a "water piping system" and I see no reason why it should not be bonded, as is the hot water side of a domestic water piping system, whether you do it at the water heater or some other accessible place.
 
jwelectric said:
(G) Rod and Pipe Electrodes. The electrode shall be installed such that at least 2.44 m (8 ft) of length is in contact with the soil. It shall be driven to a depth of not less than 2.44 m (8 ft) except that, where rock bottom is encountered, the electrode shall be driven at an oblique angle not to exceed 45 degrees from the vertical or, where rock bottom is encountered at an angle up to 45 degrees, the electrode shall be permitted to be buried in a trench that is at least 750 mm (30 in.) deep. The upper end of the electrode shall be flush with or below ground level unless the aboveground end and the grounding electrode conductor attachment are protected against physical damage as specified in 250.10. I am sorry but I can't see a requirement for the soil to be level all around the electrode.

Disagreements are good as someone has a chance to learn things
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Not sure who's being stubborn, you, me or us both.

OK, You throw your shovel full of dirt on the end of the electrode and pass your inspection....2 rains later it will no longer be code compliant. I don't really think that is the intent of the code, do you?

I'm not one to go way above and beyond code minimums, but, c'mon man, just drive that rod in.
 
mjf said:
Not sure who's being stubborn, you, me or us both. OK, You throw your shovel full of dirt on the end of the electrode and pass your inspection....2 rains later it will no longer be code compliant. I don't really think that is the intent of the code, do you?

I'm not one to go way above and beyond code minimums, but, c'mon man, just drive that rod in.
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250.10 Protection of Ground Clamps and Fittings.

Ground clamps or other fittings shall be approved for general use without protection or shall be protected from physical damage as indicated in (1) or (2) as follows:

(1) In installations where they are not likely to be damaged

(2) Where enclosed in metal, wood, or equivalent protective covering

The clamp is next to the building and is tested and listed for 500# separation pressure, I am pretty sure that would comply with "approved for general use without protection" and 1) In installations where they are not likely to be damaged This could also be a ten foot rod driven to 9 feet 6"
 
gfretwell said:
as is the hot water side of a domestic water piping system, whether you do it at the water heater or some other accessible place.
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The hot water is part of the potable water system and does not in and of itself constitute a different water system. The hot and cold are part of the same system. They do not constitute two different systems.

A simple question that should be very easy to answer, where in the NEC is the requirement to bond the hot to the cold?
 
mjf said:
Not sure who's being stubborn, you, me or us both. OK, You throw your shovel full of dirt on the end of the electrode and pass your inspection....2 rains later it will no longer be code compliant. I don't really think that is the intent of the code, do you?

I'm not one to go way above and beyond code minimums, but, c'mon man, just drive that rod in.
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So the rod is 4" short in it's contact with the earth. How about when the hole is drilled through a couple feet of concrete? There are two of them you know. Armor and the attendant clamp aren't supposed to be buried. So we get rods with a few inches sticking out of the ground and I don't know if it is an 8', 10' or 2' long rod. Did I mention that there are two of them?

Here's a pair for you. I was the inspector at the footing inspection and I was back for roof sheathing when I spotted these. My first question was, what happened to the uffer? Well they said that Edison changed up the location of the service and the uffer is 40' away. To top it off, they bonded the water pipe at a hose bibb in the back and there is copper water main at the front.

I didn't ask any questions about the rods because they won't matter.



At footing inspections I always tell them to strip the forms green and get the wood out. It's like I am talking to a wall.
 
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jwelectric said:
The hot water is part of the potable water system and does not in and of itself constitute a different water system. The hot and cold are part of the same system. They do not constitute two different systems.A simple question that should be very easy to answer, where in the NEC is the requirement to bond the hot to the cold?
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I agree the hot does not need to be bonded directly to the cold but it does need to be bonded to the grounding system somewhere.
 
In photo #one how can a ground rod be right up tight to a stem wall when there is a footing?
 
Rider Rick said:
In photo #one how can a ground rod be right up tight to a stem wall when there is a footing?
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Ya that's right....Chris said that they don't have a drill.
 
gfretwell said:
Electrically they are if you don't put in a bonding jumper over any dielectric fitting.
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Now you are confusing me to the point of insanity. Please take a couple of minutes and explain how electricity can make two different piping systems out of potable water.

If I understand what you are saying you seem to be implying that there is some sort of requirement to make the potable water system electrically continuous. Is this a correct assumption?

Assuming that this is what you are meaning could you please show me this requirement in any code. It doesn’t have to be the NEC it can be any code out there. I wanna see is not a code by the way.

With all those different types of couplings and unions on the market today one would have to invest a lot of monies into a plumbing system bonding for electrical continuity.

You mentioned bonding of a sprinkler system. If the sprinkler system is installed using grooved couplings are you going to require a bonding jumper at every coupling? This is a threadless coupling that has rubber on the inside that seals each pipe as it is joined together.

The bottom line is so simple, if a code enforcement official posts a violation this violation MUST be found somewhere in the codes. I have asked many times for this code section to no avail. Once again I ask for a simple code section that requires this continuity. No code section equals no violation.
 
I can certainly get on board with gfret's concept. That is exactly how we have viewed in in our jurisdiciton for quite some time now, and have required either a jumper between the hot and cold water pipe systems, or both systems to be bonded. The electrican almost always chose a jumper. This has become a moot point of late, especially in residential; I cannot remember the last time I saw anything other than pex in a home.

The '08 NEC states in part: 250.104 (A)(1) General: Metal water piping system(s)....shall be bonded...

Unless you can verify electrical continuity between the hot and cold supply lines, you have two separate systems. IMHO and according to our department's interpretation.
 
Darren Emery said:
I can certainly get on board with gfret's concept. That is exactly how we have viewed in in our jurisdiciton for quite some time now, and have required either a jumper between the hot and cold water pipe systems, or both systems to be bonded. The electrican almost always chose a jumper. This has become a moot point of late, especially in residential; I cannot remember the last time I saw anything other than pex in a home. The '08 NEC states in part: 250.104 (A)(1) General: Metal water piping system(s)....shall be bonded...

Unless you can verify electrical continuity between the hot and cold supply lines, you have two separate systems. IMHO and according to our department's interpretation.
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Once again (for the fiftieth time) please show me verbiage from any code that requires this ridiculous bonding that is nothing more than a waste of our natural resources.
 
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