mjf
Member
So the code really means nothing??jwelectric said:A shovel of dirt and this job is complete
Inspectors here require the end of the electrode to be below grade. Is it nit-picking? Maybe. The NEC either matters or it doesn't.
So the code really means nothing??jwelectric said:A shovel of dirt and this job is complete
"Likely to become energized" One of the poorest and vague stipulation to be used by the NEC.ICE said:That metal pipe carries air. Further on down the line, the pipe will carry water....and other stuff. It is not likely to become energized and therefor it is not required to be bonded.250.104(B) Other Metal Piping.
Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized...
250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel. (A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.ICE said:That metal pipe carries air. Further on down the line, the pipe will carry water....and other stuff. It is not likely to become energized and therefor it is not required to be bonded.250.104(B) Other Metal Piping.
Where installed in or attached to a building or structure, a metal piping system(s), including gas piping, that is likely to become energized...
below grade if under dirt so a shovel of dirt and it is below grademjf said:So the code really means nothing?? Inspectors here require the end of the electrode to be below grade. Is it nit-picking? Maybe. The NEC either matters or it doesn't.
I am astounded at how much I don't know.jwelectric said:If there is 10 feet or more in contact with earth then it is also an electrode.
I would list the cast iron in the ground attached to the metal DWV inside the structure would come under 250.52 (A) (8)jwelectric said:250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel. (A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).
This pipe is part of the waste water system and is required to be bonded period. The section does not say potable water it only says water system.
If there is 10 feet or more in contact with earth then it is also an electrode.
Likely to be energized has nothing to do with the bonding of this pipe.
JW, I thought you were the one saying sprinkler pipes did not need to be bonded and that there was no need to bond a water piping system beyond the first insulation joint (like the water heater)jwelectric said:250.104 Bonding of Piping Systems and Exposed Structural Steel. (A) Metal Water Piping. The metal water piping system shall be bonded as required in (A)(1), (A)(2), or (A)(3) of this section. The bonding jumper(s) shall be installed in accordance with 250.64(A), (B), and (E). The points of attachment of the bonding jumper(s) shall be accessible.
(1) General. Metal water piping system(s) installed in or attached to a building or structure shall be bonded to the service equipment enclosure, the grounded conductor at the service, the grounding electrode conductor where of sufficient size, or to the one or more grounding electrodes used. The bonding jumper(s) shall be sized in accordance with Table 250.66 except as permitted in 250.104(A)(2) and (A)(3).
This pipe is part of the waste water system and is required to be bonded period. The section does not say potable water it only says water system.
If there is 10 feet or more in contact with earth then it is also an electrode.
Likely to be energized has nothing to do with the bonding of this pipe.
I will have to respectfully disagree. I'd either drive the rod home or bring the grade in the planter up above the electrode. A shovel full of dirt wouldn't cut itjwelectric said:below grade if under dirt so a shovel of dirt and it is below grade
I am sorry but I don’t see the comparison between a sprinkler and a metal waste pipe. 250.52(A)(8) requires it to be used as an electrode and 250.104(A)(1) requires it to be bonded at some accessible point. There is no requirement to bond at a water heater to be found anywhere in the NEC.gfretwell said:JW, I thought you were the one saying sprinkler pipes did not need to be bonded and that there was no need to bond a water piping system beyond the first insulation joint (like the water heater)
(G) Rod and Pipe Electrodes. The electrode shall be installed such that at least 2.44 m (8 ft) of length is in contact with the soil. It shall be driven to a depth of not less than 2.44 m (8 ft) except that, where rock bottom is encountered, the electrode shall be driven at an oblique angle not to exceed 45 degrees from the vertical or, where rock bottom is encountered at an angle up to 45 degrees, the electrode shall be permitted to be buried in a trench that is at least 750 mm (30 in.) deep. The upper end of the electrode shall be flush with or below ground level unless the aboveground end and the grounding electrode conductor attachment are protected against physical damage as specified in 250.10.mjf said:I will have to respectfully disagree. I'd either drive the rod home or bring the grade in the planter up above the electrode. A shovel full of dirt wouldn't cut it
Not sure who's being stubborn, you, me or us both.jwelectric said:(G) Rod and Pipe Electrodes. The electrode shall be installed such that at least 2.44 m (8 ft) of length is in contact with the soil. It shall be driven to a depth of not less than 2.44 m (8 ft) except that, where rock bottom is encountered, the electrode shall be driven at an oblique angle not to exceed 45 degrees from the vertical or, where rock bottom is encountered at an angle up to 45 degrees, the electrode shall be permitted to be buried in a trench that is at least 750 mm (30 in.) deep. The upper end of the electrode shall be flush with or below ground level unless the aboveground end and the grounding electrode conductor attachment are protected against physical damage as specified in 250.10. I am sorry but I can't see a requirement for the soil to be level all around the electrode.
Disagreements are good as someone has a chance to learn things
250.10 Protection of Ground Clamps and Fittings.mjf said:Not sure who's being stubborn, you, me or us both. OK, You throw your shovel full of dirt on the end of the electrode and pass your inspection....2 rains later it will no longer be code compliant. I don't really think that is the intent of the code, do you?
I'm not one to go way above and beyond code minimums, but, c'mon man, just drive that rod in.
The hot water is part of the potable water system and does not in and of itself constitute a different water system. The hot and cold are part of the same system. They do not constitute two different systems.gfretwell said:as is the hot water side of a domestic water piping system, whether you do it at the water heater or some other accessible place.
So the rod is 4" short in it's contact with the earth. How about when the hole is drilled through a couple feet of concrete? There are two of them you know. Armor and the attendant clamp aren't supposed to be buried. So we get rods with a few inches sticking out of the ground and I don't know if it is an 8', 10' or 2' long rod. Did I mention that there are two of them?mjf said:Not sure who's being stubborn, you, me or us both. OK, You throw your shovel full of dirt on the end of the electrode and pass your inspection....2 rains later it will no longer be code compliant. I don't really think that is the intent of the code, do you?
I'm not one to go way above and beyond code minimums, but, c'mon man, just drive that rod in.
I agree the hot does not need to be bonded directly to the cold but it does need to be bonded to the grounding system somewhere.jwelectric said:The hot water is part of the potable water system and does not in and of itself constitute a different water system. The hot and cold are part of the same system. They do not constitute two different systems.A simple question that should be very easy to answer, where in the NEC is the requirement to bond the hot to the cold?
Ya that's right....Chris said that they don't have a drill.Rider Rick said:In photo #one how can a ground rod be right up tight to a stem wall when there is a footing?
Are you saying that the hot and cold constitute two different systems?gfretwell said:I agree the hot does not need to be bonded directly to the cold but it does need to be bonded to the grounding system somewhere.
Now you are confusing me to the point of insanity. Please take a couple of minutes and explain how electricity can make two different piping systems out of potable water.gfretwell said:Electrically they are if you don't put in a bonding jumper over any dielectric fitting.
Once again (for the fiftieth time) please show me verbiage from any code that requires this ridiculous bonding that is nothing more than a waste of our natural resources.Darren Emery said:I can certainly get on board with gfret's concept. That is exactly how we have viewed in in our jurisdiciton for quite some time now, and have required either a jumper between the hot and cold water pipe systems, or both systems to be bonded. The electrican almost always chose a jumper. This has become a moot point of late, especially in residential; I cannot remember the last time I saw anything other than pex in a home. The '08 NEC states in part: 250.104 (A)(1) General: Metal water piping system(s)....shall be bonded...
Unless you can verify electrical continuity between the hot and cold supply lines, you have two separate systems. IMHO and according to our department's interpretation.