Would you allow this interlock kit?

[RJJ]

JW: good point! I was thinking on the same line! Just had not connected the dots.

 

[Rider Rick]

So it sounds like this kit is not code compliant.

 

[jwelectric]

JW: good point! I was thinking on the same line! Just had not connected the dots.

So it sounds like this kit is not code compliant.

These type of transfer switches do have their place but not with a standalone type generator.

Generators that have nothing but receptacles on them to take electrical energy away manufactured or refurbished after 01-01-2011 must have GFCI protection on any and all 15 through 30 amp 120/240 volt receptacles which will bring to a halt this ridiculous type of standby installations. See 590.6 (2011 edition) for more information.

I have seen some inspectors who could mop the floor with most EC's in term of NEC knowledge.

Being qualified has nothing to do with one’s knowledge of the NEC.Follow the link for more information of what makes someone qualified.

http://www.thebuildingcodeforum.com/forum/residential-electrical-codes/10228-would-you-allow-interlock-kit-2.html#post95636

 

[gfretwell]

Does anyone think these interlock kits are worse than the alternative, a guy backfeeding the dryer outlet and trying to remember to trip the main?

It reminds me of all the concessions we give residential installations for shed circuits and underground wiring. I think NFPA believes 12" down and all the breaks they get in 225 is better than an orange cord strung through the trees.

As for the manufacturer of the panel. I bet they hate these interlocks because they want you to buy the ones the manufacturer sells.

 

[jwelectric]

Does anyone think that using #14 to wire a kitchen is any worse than using zip cord?

Does anyone think that using one 6 foot rod is any worse than cutting off a ¾ inch pipe for an electrode?

What I know is this;

90.1 Purpose.

(A) Practical Safeguarding. The purpose of this Code is the practical safeguarding of persons and property from hazards arising from the use of electricity.

I also think that when we start circumventing the code just because we think it might be safer than another method we should leave the trade as we are now useless. The code means something, it means a safe installation and anything less is an unsafe installation.

Either we abide by the code or we don’t. Personally I abide by the code and would never do anything less.

As a code enforcement I took an oath to enforce the code and not my opinion. I use the proposal process to point out my opinions and should the Panels agree with me then things gets changed.

 

[ICE]

You can try it for 30 days and if you don't like it they will return your money....... Well that's only to "qualified" buyers (and heirs just in case you did hurt yourself.....you were warned)

Generator InterLock Kit - Warranty & Inspector Information

So often I've heard a shrill voice squeak out the words, "It is a listed product and you can't say no"...... Of course I've said no anyway but that's another topic and there's no point in twisting noses

 

[steveray]

And if the generator is permanently installed?

[/color]And here are the UL restrictions;FTCN.GuideInfo

Engine Generators for Portable Use

This category covers internal-combustion-engine-driven generators rated 15 kW or less, 250 V or less, which are provided only with receptacle outlets for the ac output circuits. The generators may incorporate alternating- or direct-current generator sections for supplying energy to battery-charging circuits.

When a portable generator is used to supply a building or structure wiring system:

1. The generator is considered a separately derived system in accordance with ANSI/NFPA 70, "National Electrical Code" (NEC).

2. The generator is intended to be connected through permanently installed Listed transfer equipment that switches all conductors other than the equipment grounding conductor.

3. The frame of a Listed generator is connected to the equipment-grounding conductor and the grounded (neutral) conductor of the generator. When properly connected to a premises or structure wiring system, the portable generator will be connected to the premises or structure grounding electrode for its ground reference.

4. Portable generators used other than to power building or structure wiring systems are intended to be connected to ground if required by the NEC.

No this interlock kit does not work for a portable generator at all

 

[jwelectric]

And if the generator is permanently installed?

Then it won't have receptacles to be plugged into will it.

 

[jwelectric]

You can try it for 30 days and if you don't like it they will return your money....... Well that's only to "qualified" buyers (and heirs just in case you did hurt yourself.....you were warned)Generator InterLock Kit - Warranty & Inspector Information

So often I've heard a shrill voice squeak out the words, "It is a listed product and you can't say no"...... Of course I've said no anyway but that's another topic and there's no point in twisting noses

There is no one yet that said the kit was not listed but the portable self-contained generator is not listed for the application. Yes go ahead and install a vehicle mounted generator that is hard wired and use this kit but unless that kits allows the switching of the neutral then the portable generator can’t be connected using that kit.

 

[gfretwell]

This is the kind of thing that should be addressed in a proposal to see what NFPA says.

 

[jwelectric]

This is the kind of thing that should be addressed in a proposal to see what NFPA says.

They already have said, it is called the NEC.

702.12 Outdoor Generator Sets. See related ROP UL

Where an outdoor housed generator set is equipped with a readily accessible disconnecting means located within sight of the building or structure supplied, an additional disconnecting means shall not be required where ungrounded conductors serve or pass through the building or structure. The disconnecting means shall meet the requirements of 225.36.

Unless the cord and plug is rated as service equipment then it can’t be connected to the building as an optional standby system.

It can be used as temporary power as outlined in 590.

Also see the Informational Note found under 250.34 which address portable generators.

 

[gfretwell]

When you have several million generators out there and you tell the homeowner there is no legal way to connect it to their furnace blower on a cold night (we have already discussed cords to furnace blowers several times), you are asking for lawlessness and jack leg solutions. That is why I think NFPA should be addressing this with a simple and approved method using hardware that costs less than what they paid for the generator.

I have seen a lot of esoteric code citations but I have not seen the hazard of an interlock kit delineated.

 

[jwelectric]

I have not seen the hazard of an interlock kit delineated.

The main bonding jumper in the service as well as another in a remote panel board somewhere down stream.

 

[ICE]

deleted.......

 

[gfretwell]

The main bonding jumper in the service as well as another in a remote panel board somewhere down stream.

This is not installed as a SDS so there should not be a bonding jumper in the generator.

That is simply a matter of lifting the MBJ in the generator if present. Some have them, some don't.

Soares has a better diagram of this than the NEC. In our case, the sizing is not an issue because the MBJ and grounding system we are using in the service will be far larger than required for the generator.

 

[jwelectric]

All generators built to UL Standards that have the receptacles mounted on the frame of the generator will have the midpoint of the winding bonded to the frame of the generator.

If your state requires that any equipment connected to a home be UL listed then the only way that these generators can be connected to a dwelling is as a SDS. Now comes the question, would you let a homeowner build his own gas furnace and install it? If not why would one not enforce the codes when it comes to these generators?

This is outlined in UL FTCN.

I have a hard time with code enforcement officials that will hold a job for a staple that is a couple of inches out but will falter when it comes to generators. Either one enforces the codes or one doesn’t.

 

[jwelectric]

deleted.......

This was a good remark to the subject at hand.

 

[Builder Bob]

Based on seeing dryer cords being used to backfeed a dryer outlet, I would highly recommend this approach for the safety of the utility linemen........ In times of national disaster, Darwinism works - but unfortunately, the stupid acts of some can affect many others working on high powered transmission line smiles away. Transformers that step down the utility companies power down to the 220/110 for the house also step-up voltage that the portable generator backfeed to the transformer......

In simplistic terms, I would recommend this regardless of qualified, visible OCPD, etc.... I have seen the worse from natural disasters, this is definately a step in the right direction.

 

[jwelectric]

Based on seeing dryer cords being used to backfeed a dryer outlet, I would highly recommend this approach for the safety of the utility linemen........

Let me see if I understand what you are saying.You are saying that to allow an installation that is noncompliant will put an end to the dryer cord type of installation, is this correct?

Trying to justify a noncompliant installation by saying it is safer than what we have seen would be like saying that a 20 amp fuse would be alright on a #14 conductor simply because we have seen 30 amp fuses in the same place. How many would accept this oversizing the fuse?

As a code enforcement official we take an oath to enforce the codes. Does this oath mean anything?

As a license holder we are bound by law to make all installations in a compliant manner. Or is this requirement somehow overlooked if the inspector thinks that their oath means nothing?

When making electrical installations do we just do what we think is safer or do we adhere to the adopted codes in our area?

If we are going to think the dryer cord is dangerous why wouldn’t we think that any and all code violations are dangerous?

 

[Builder Bob]

The ability to cite code verbatim is great.... however, in the big real world, does this installation make it safer and is it easier to use than using open splices, dryer cords, and back feeding a panel by using the dryer circuit?

Common sense would tell me this is a lot better than this:

No Transfer Switch - Just a plug

Extension Cords ran through walls, windows, doors, etc.

Or better yet, no wiring required - pre-order this today!!

Actual picture off of Amazon and Out of Stock at the moment..... Hummm

The concept presented is a permanent solution - low cost - and usable by the typical person - This is a battle that I would accept as it meets the intent of the code for not allowing simultaneous feed of a panel from two (potential) power sources.

 

[jwelectric]

The ability to cite code verbatim is great.... however, in the big real world, does this installation make it safer .

I once was involved with a dispute between an electrical contractor and an electrical inspector.

The contractor had installed a SJO three conductor #8 cord to a range. The inspector turned down the job and said the cord had to be replaced.

The electrician’s argument was that he only had #8 in two conductor with ground NM cable and #8 SJO cord. Being that the EGC was insulated in the cord it would be safer than the NM cable and the inspector should have passed the installation.

What say you?

 

[jwelectric]

Extension Cords ran through walls, windows, doors, etc.

In this use it will be temporary just as when the home was being built. It will not be there forever and this is the way these generators were designed to be used. See 590.6I have two of these generators and 4 100 feet cords that I use. I have been without power for nine days.

What I won't do is connect one of these to my home for any reason.

This is is my opinion and my opinion only, only an idiot would spend the money to connect one to their home.

 

[gfretwell]

Jw, How did you "legally" hook up your furnace blower?

I also wonder about what you say about "U/L requiring the neutral being bonded" since there are listed generators out there that don't. (some Hondas for example).

BTW U/L is only one of over a dozen NRTLs. I don't know what you do when they disagree.

Perhaps you just look for the potential hazards and make your decision based on safety.

 

[ICE]

I once was involved with a dispute between an electrical contractor and an electrical inspector.The contractor had installed a SJO three conductor #8 cord to a range. The inspector turned down the job and said the cord had to be replaced.

The electrician’s argument was that he only had #8 in two conductor with ground NM cable and #8 SJO cord. Being that the EGC was insulated in the cord it would be safer than the NM cable and the inspector should have passed the installation.

What say you?

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