emergency escape and garage

[T-Bird]

I get that. Different in form and the same in function. Both serve as a way out of the building. When sauntering out the means of egress on your way to the hairdresser you are precluded from passing through a garage......when fleeing from danger all bets are off?

Insight to the reasoning the committee applied to the ban on an egress through a garage would be helpful. It could be that it just sounded great so they did it.

I met a member of the code making committee that established fifty occupants as a trigger for egress requirements. I asked what evidence was presented to validate the number. I was told that there is no science behind it. Some on the panel wanted twenty and some wanted 120. Fifty is a number that all of the members could agree with.

Other than the fact that TBird's goose is getting roasted, this could be a pointless discussion.

Oh and BIG T...........try not being mean to my friends.

I read the code as not wanting the garage to be the only egress provided for the dwelling. For EERO the more the better, ideally.

 

[jwilly3879]

Other than the EERO in the garage I don't see an alternative.

 

[cda]

I am thinking this particular set up meets code

There is the exit that leads to the main floor and exit door

There is a eero in the basement


So a person has two separate ways out.

I do not think a code official can tell you where to place the eero

I guess he could always resubmit the plans and label the garage
as "Storage". Would that make where he placed the eero legal??

 

[Sol]

Everyone is in agreement that a bedroom EERO has to open directly to a public way or yard. This is stated in section 310.1. What code section states the basement needs an EERO which open directly to the public way or yard, same section 310.1. There is nothing in this section even bedroom EERO that say you can not go through the garage. Would you allow a bedroom EERO through a garage, NO. Then how can you let a basement EERO through a garage.

 

[cda]

Everyone is in agreement that a bedroom EERO has to open directly to a public way or yard. This is stated in section 310.1. What code section states the basement needs an EERO which open directly to the public way or yard, same section 310.1. There is nothing in this section even bedroom EERO that say you can not go through the garage. Would you allow a bedroom EERO through a garage, NO. Then how can you let a basement EERO through a garage.

Different scenario

 

[cda]

Everyone is in agreement that a bedroom EERO has to open directly to a public way or yard. This is stated in section 310.1. What code section states the basement needs an EERO which open directly to the public way or yard, same section 310.1. There is nothing in this section even bedroom EERO that say you can not go through the garage. Would you allow a bedroom EERO through a garage, NO. Then how can you let a basement EERO through a garage.

Keep asking

If there is a basement

And the only thing in it is a garage

Where are you going to put the eero ???

 

[Sleepy]

Everyone is in agreement that a bedroom EERO has to open directly to a public way or yard. This is stated in section 310.1. What code section states the basement needs an EERO which open directly to the public way or yard, same section 310.1. There is nothing in this section even bedroom EERO that say you can not go through the garage. Would you allow a bedroom EERO through a garage, NO. Then how can you let a basement EERO through a garage.

This section was changed for the 2015 version. 2015 IRC section 310.1 requires EEROs in "basements, habitable attics and every sleeping room." Since the code says that each sleeping room shall have (not have access to, but "have") an EERO, the EERO has to be located in the actual sleeping room. Similarly, since the code says basements shall have an EERO, it needs to be located in the basement, but there are no other requirements for location, it could be in any room in the basement. Further on the same section says that EEROs must open "directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way."

 

[Sol]

If the basement is a garage, then it is a garage and EERO is required for a garage. The garage is an accessory use to the dwelling. All the egress requirements are for a dwelling not a garage.

 

[Sol]

Sorry EERO is not required for a garage

 

[cda]

Sorry EERO is not required for a garage

If that area is a basement by code ???


Where is that exception code section?

 

[tmurray]

If the basement is a garage, then it is a garage and EERO is required for a garage. The garage is an accessory use to the dwelling. All the egress requirements are for a dwelling not a garage.

So would that not make it part of the dwelling, meaning that EERO is accomplished once the occupant exits the garage?

 

[cda]

Boy sounds like someone is going to do a code proposal !!!

So seems like this question may be answered differently in a lot of ahj's

Anyway, there is plenty of room on the server to keep the thread going.

Someone with contact to the all powerful ICC oz, should ask them the question.

Plus I cannot believe this floor plan does not exist anywhere in the known universe?? And the question has not come up.

 

[jwilly3879]

Put the EERO in the garage portion of the basement, either a window or a door open to the outside. Then there are two ways out of the basement up the stairs or out the EERO. There is no other place to locate the basement EERO unless it opens to the crawlspace with a tunnel and the EERO is from the crawlspace. I would see it differently if the "basement" had an exterior wall.

 

[JCraver]

Put the EERO in the garage portion of the basement, either a window or a door open to the outside. Then there are two ways out of the basement up the stairs or out the EERO. There is no other place to locate the basement EERO unless it opens to the crawlspace with a tunnel and the EERO is from the crawlspace. I would see it differently if the "basement" had an exterior wall.

It doesn't matter if it has an exterior wall. A basement is a basement, and it has to have an EERO that opens to the public way.

 

[JCraver]

This section was changed for the 2015 version. 2015 IRC section 310.1 requires EEROs in "basements, habitable attics and every sleeping room." Since the code says that each sleeping room shall have (not have access to, but "have") an EERO, the EERO has to be located in the actual sleeping room. Similarly, since the code says basements shall have an EERO, it needs to be located in the basement, but there are no other requirements for location, it could be in any room in the basement. Further on the same section says that EEROs must open "directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way."

Yes. This. Exactly.

 

[T-Bird]

Everyone is in agreement that a bedroom EERO has to open directly to a public way or yard. This is stated in section 310.1. What code section states the basement needs an EERO which open directly to the public way or yard, same section 310.1. There is nothing in this section even bedroom EERO that say you can not go through the garage. Would you allow a bedroom EERO through a garage, NO. Then how can you let a basement EERO through a garage.

A basement is a level and a bedroom a room. The code wants the EERO for a bedroom in the the room, the code wants the EERO for the basement level at the basement level. Don't get confused.

 

[cda]

It doesn't matter if it has an exterior wall. A basement is a basement, and it has to have an EERO that opens to the public way.

I see a lot of them open to a backyard ???

 

[JCraver]

Well it seems you'll go anywhere in the code to make your case, and then change it to suit your purpose:
Habitable Space. ...Bathrooms, toilets rooms, closets, halls, storage or utility spaces and similar areas are not considered habitable spaces.
That's all I have down there. Besides a garage. And no one space/room exceeds 200 s.f.

I'm sorry if you see it that way - I'm not trying to make sh!_ up, I'm trying to get your plan compliant (and keep somebody from dying in a fire, which is the whole point of these particular codes..).

Maybe this will help. This is directly from the 2015 Commentary:

❖ Because so many fire deaths occur as a result of occupants
being asleep in a residential building during a fire, the code requires
that all basements, habitable attics and sleeping rooms have
windows or doors that
may be used for emergency escape or rescue. The
requirement for emergency escape and rescue openings in
sleeping rooms exists, because a fire will usually
have spread before the occupants are aware of the
problem, and the normal exit channels may be
blocked. The requirement for basements and habitable
attics exists, because they are so often used as sleeping rooms.
A fire in a mechanical room adjacent to a
stairway could engulf the only means of egress for the
basement without the egress window or door.
Openings required for emergency escape or rescue
must be located on the exterior of the building so that
rescue can be performed from the exterior and so that
occupants may escape through that opening to the
exterior of the building without having to travel through
the building itself. Therefore, where openings are
required, they should open directly into a public street,
public alley, yard or court. After the occupants pass
through the emergency escape and rescue opening,
their continued egress is essential. Where a basement
contains sleeping rooms and a habitable space, an
emergency escape and rescue opening is required in
each sleeping room, but is not required in adjoining
areas of the basement.
There is an exception for storm shelters and base-
ments used only to house mechanical equipment with
a total floor area not exceeding 200 square feet (18.58
m2).

 

[JCraver]

I see a lot of them open to a backyard ???

R310.1 Emergency escape and rescue opening required.
Basements, habitable attics and every sleeping room shall have not less than one operable emergency escape and rescue opening. Where basements contain one or more sleeping rooms, an emergency escape and rescue opening shall be required in each sleeping room. Emergency escape and rescue openings shall open directly into a public way, or to a yard or court that opens to a public way.

 

[jwilly3879]

I realize the EERO is required in the basement but looking at the plan it is not possible. The garage is part of the basement so an EERO in the garage would satisfy the code IMHO. I agree with T-Bird. Without an exterior wall where would you put an EERO?

 

[T-Bird]

I'm sorry if you see it that way - I'm not trying to make sh!_ up, I'm trying to get your plan compliant (and keep somebody from dying in a fire, which is the whole point of these particular codes..).

Maybe this will help. This is directly from the 2015 Commentary:

❖ Because so many fire deaths occur as a result of occupants
being asleep in a residential building during afire, the code requires
that all basements, habitable attics and sleeping rooms have
windows or doors that
may be used for emergency escape or rescue. The
requirement for emergency escape and rescue openings in
sleeping rooms exists because a fire will usually
have spread before the occupants are aware of the
problem, and the normal exit channels may be
blocked. The requirement for basements and habitable
attics exists because they are so often used as sleeping rooms.
A fire in a mechanical room adjacent to a
stairway could engulf the only means of egress for the
basement without the egress window or door.
Openings required for emergency escape or rescue
must be located on the exterior of the building so that
rescue can be performed from the exterior and so that
occupants may escape through that opening to the
exterior of the building without having to travel through
the building itself. Therefore, where openings are
required, they should open directly into a public street,
public alley, yard or court. After the occupants pass
through the emergency escape and rescue opening,
their continued egress is essential. Where a basement
contains sleeping rooms and a habitable space, an
emergency escape and rescue opening is required in
each sleeping room, but is not required in adjoining
areas of the basement.
There is an exception for storm shelters and base-
ments used only to house mechanical equipment with
a total floor area not exceeding 200 square feet (18.58
m2).

I still see this as saying put your EERO at the exterior wall at a yard with access to a public ROW, which I did. And I know you're still thinking that "directly to the outside" means not through the garage. This code commentary doesn't speak directly to what that phrase means or intends, so I don't see this as helpful in resolving our different interpretation of what the code is saying. That phrase is the cornerstone of your aurgument against allowing EERO's in a garage, so it needs to be defined.

 

[cda]

I'm sorry if you see it that way - I'm not trying to make sh!_ up, I'm trying to get your plan compliant (and keep somebody from dying in a fire, which is the whole point of these particular codes..).

Maybe this will help. This is directly from the 2015 Commentary:

❖ Because so many fire deaths occur as a result of occupants
being asleep in a residential building during afire, the code requires
that all basements, habitable attics and sleeping rooms have
windows or doors that
may be used for emergency escape or rescue. The
requirement for emergency escape and rescue openings in
sleeping rooms exists because a fire will usually
have spread before the occupants are aware of the
problem, and the normal exit channels may be
blocked. The requirement for basements and habitable
attics exists because they are so often used as sleeping rooms.
A fire in a mechanical room adjacent to a
stairway could engulf the only means of egress for the
basement without the egress window or door.
Openings required for emergency escape or rescue
must be located on the exterior of the building so that
rescue can be performed from the exterior and so that
occupants may escape through that opening to the
exterior of the building without having to travel through
the building itself. Therefore, where openings are
required, they should open directly into a public street,
public alley, yard or court. After the occupants pass
through the emergency escape and rescue opening,
their continued egress is essential. Where a basement
contains sleeping rooms and a habitable space, an
emergency escape and rescue opening is required in
each sleeping room, but is not required in adjoining
areas of the basement.
There is an exception for storm shelters and base-
ments used only to house mechanical equipment with
a total floor area not exceeding 200 square feet (18.58
m2).

Sounds good

But I do not see anything that says for this floor plan, that the eero has to be in a specific place

 

[T-Bird]

I'm sorry if you see it that way - I'm not trying to make sh!_ up, I'm trying to get your plan compliant (and keep somebody from dying in a fire, which is the whole point of these particular codes..).

Maybe this will help. This is directly from the 2015 Commentary:

❖ Because so many fire deaths occur as a result of occupants
being asleep in a residential building during afire, the code requires
that all basements, habitable attics and sleeping rooms have
windows or doors that
may be used for emergency escape or rescue. The
requirement for emergency escape and rescue openings in
sleeping rooms exists because a fire will usually
have spread before the occupants are aware of the
problem, and the normal exit channels may be
blocked. The requirement for basements and habitable
attics exists because they are so often used as sleeping rooms.
A fire in a mechanical room adjacent to a
stairway could engulf the only means of egress for the
basement without the egress window or door.
Openings required for emergency escape or rescue
must be located on the exterior of the building so that
rescue can be performed from the exterior and so that
occupants may escape through that opening to the
exterior of the building without having to travel through
the building itself. Therefore, where openings are
required, they should open directly into a public street,
public alley, yard or court. After the occupants pass
through the emergency escape and rescue opening,
their continued egress is essential. Where a basement
contains sleeping rooms and a habitable space, an
emergency escape and rescue opening is required in
each sleeping room, but is not required in adjoining
areas of the basement.
There is an exception for storm shelters and base-
ments used only to house mechanical equipment with
a total floor area not exceeding 200 square feet (18.58
m2).

Of course life safety is what needs to be addressed. I think the one thing I want to make clear is the nature of this basement. No sleeping is taking place here. All activity is transitory in nature. To say if a person can sleep in a space they will, is a stretch. It suggests that human occupants will want or tend to subvert the code. Or it suggests that all aspects of a project needs to be analyzed/evaluated to discover and prevent these subversions. I don’t think that is the role or nature of plan review.
For this floor plan if someone is in the basement and fire breaks out in the garage, escape is up the stair. If fire breaks out in the dwelling, escape is through the garage. Separation between dwelling and garage is provided per code. This makes the garage in essence a safer space/refuge if fire does break out in the dwelling. That makes me feel safer.

 

[ICE]

To say if a person can sleep in a space they will, is a stretch. It suggests that human occupants will want or tend to subvert the code. Or it suggests that all aspects of a project needs to be analyzed/evaluated to discover and prevent these subversions.

If we based decisions on what is possible and or likely, garages would be outlawed in Southern California.