Nope…it’s scalding. There should not be water in the pipe to freeze. Any water in the pipe will thaw ice.
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An average day
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redeyedfly
REGISTERED
It's not "to grade", it's to the floor. We don't put water heaters in unconditioned areas in freezing climates.
The requirement only means that you have to add a pipe from the T&P valve down to near the floor. No requirements that it discharge outdoor. I don't think it even needs to discharge into the drip pan.
It seems the requirement is to avoid scalding someone who happened to be next to the valve if it ever opens. 6" appears arbitrary, the CA code to 24" would also achieve the same results.
The requirement only means that you have to add a pipe from the T&P valve down to near the floor. No requirements that it discharge outdoor. I don't think it even needs to discharge into the drip pan.
It seems the requirement is to avoid scalding someone who happened to be next to the valve if it ever opens. 6" appears arbitrary, the CA code to 24" would also achieve the same results.
I can't copy and paste the 2019 CPC so a picture will have to do. As you can see, there is no requirement that the T&P drain extend to the exterior.
I can copy and paste the 2011 CPC. That code stated that the T&P drain could terminate at an approved location. The 2019 CPC does not state that in specific terms but says that the T&P shall discharge in such a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage. The term "structural damage" leaves the door open to ....oh let's say ruin the carpet. In other words, the flooring can suffer as long as the girders are not affected.
2011 CPC
608.5 Relief valves located inside a building shall be provided with a drain, not smaller than the relief valve outlet, of galva- nized steel, hard-drawn copper piping and fittings, CPVC or listed relief valve drain tube with fittings that will not reduce the internal bore of the pipe or tubing (straight lengths as op- posed to coils) and shall extend from the valve to the outside of the building, with the end of the pipe not more than two (2) feet nor less than six (6) inches above ground or the flood level of the area receiving the discharge and pointing downward. Such drains shall be permitted to terminate at other approved locations. Relief valve drains shall not terminate in a building’s crawl space. No part of such drain pipe shall be trapped or subject to freezing. The terminal end of the drain pipe shall not be threaded.
I can copy and paste the 2011 CPC. That code stated that the T&P drain could terminate at an approved location. The 2019 CPC does not state that in specific terms but says that the T&P shall discharge in such a manner that does not cause personal injury or structural damage. The term "structural damage" leaves the door open to ....oh let's say ruin the carpet. In other words, the flooring can suffer as long as the girders are not affected.
2011 CPC
608.5 Relief valves located inside a building shall be provided with a drain, not smaller than the relief valve outlet, of galva- nized steel, hard-drawn copper piping and fittings, CPVC or listed relief valve drain tube with fittings that will not reduce the internal bore of the pipe or tubing (straight lengths as op- posed to coils) and shall extend from the valve to the outside of the building, with the end of the pipe not more than two (2) feet nor less than six (6) inches above ground or the flood level of the area receiving the discharge and pointing downward. Such drains shall be permitted to terminate at other approved locations. Relief valve drains shall not terminate in a building’s crawl space. No part of such drain pipe shall be trapped or subject to freezing. The terminal end of the drain pipe shall not be threaded.
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redeyedfly
REGISTERED
Interesting that CPC requires you do something to route the discharge to a drain or outside; IPC does not, you only need to get it close to the floor. #7 in CPC above is opposite of IPC which specifically allows discharge into the drip pan.
Now I can't figure out why CPC would disallow discharge into the pan.
Now I can't figure out why CPC would disallow discharge into the pan.
The pan would be overwhelmed in an instant. Pointless comes to mind.
I have enforced the 6/24-inch code for years and noticed that the IRC does not indicate 24-inch. I believe I have been enforcing the UPC code by telling them no higher than 24-inches when asked. Haven't been called out on it, most just make it 6-inches off the floor if a floor drains near by.
Commercial plumbers typically dump it in the floor sink.
Not sure if I understand the P2804.6.1 number 10 wording in regards to two times the discharge pipe diameter above the floor? Does this lead you to believe that PEX with insert fittings is now allowed to be used for the discharge pipe? Or is this another measurement for the length of pipe? Confused with this a bit.
Commercial plumbers typically dump it in the floor sink.
Not sure if I understand the P2804.6.1 number 10 wording in regards to two times the discharge pipe diameter above the floor? Does this lead you to believe that PEX with insert fittings is now allowed to be used for the discharge pipe? Or is this another measurement for the length of pipe? Confused with this a bit.
PEX with insert fittings is allowed if the business end of the pipe is secured so it doesn't whip around like a snake when it goes off, and if the pipe diameter is upsized to accommodate the diameter reduction of the pipe at each fitting.
The two times the discharge pipe diameter is basically a minimum air gap to prevent siphoning if the floor drain backs up and overflows in that area - if you are two pipe diameters above the floor or flood level rim, the theory is that you won't siphon dirty water back into your water heater and contaminate your water supply.
For IPC, assuming you have a 3/4" discharge pipe, you want the discharge pipe to terminate anywhere above 1 1/2" above the floor to 6" above the floor.
redeyedfly
REGISTERED
I don't know if it would be overwhelmed or not. I've never seen one operate and couldn't find a video of one in operation. It doesn't drain the tank, it only relieves the pressure which may be a relatively small amount of water before it closes again.
In any case, dumping it on the floor directly would have the same result.
The valve might be open until the temperature of the water drops. I too have never seen one opened. The pan is almost entirely filled with water heater with a narrow gap at the edge so I doubt it would do any good at all.....picture a garden hose for a fifteen second blast at full throttle.
I once had a water heater replacement with the T&P drain pipe that entered a wall and I failed to find where it terminated. The owner was with me. After I left he opened the valve with the idea that it would become obvious where it terminated. It took a while. It was stubbed into the wall and went no further. It blew the drywall off in the living room. I found that out when I went back for another inspection...it was difficult to be nonchalant.
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Reminds of some condos I used to manage.
Garden style, 12 units per building. T&Ps were piped into the AC condensate drains, so the only way you knew there was an issue was steam coming out of the storm grates in front of a building.
Garden style, 12 units per building. T&Ps were piped into the AC condensate drains, so the only way you knew there was an issue was steam coming out of the storm grates in front of a building.
The info is wrong, Eaton BR is OEM for BR loadcenters & Challenger, not classified for anyone, Eaton CL is UL classified for most competitive makes, never have read that GE is classified for any competitive makes. Siemens can be used for Murray, there is a letter from UL on that. Eaton has removed the Cutler-Hammer brand name & replaced it with Eaton, just as Siemens phased out the ITE brand in the past.
Mark K,
You really don't know the depth and breath of the malfeasance that exists in the building code enforcement community. It is just bizarre.
I met yesterday with a friend that is trying to obtain a permit for a carport. It has taken six months so far and the planner is clueless. The contractor had a list of questions regarding an ADU that he is building. He had inspection for footing and under-slab plumbing that amounted to a few minutes. He wasn't sure that the inspector looked at it and the inspector would not answer any questions....so I did.
I plan on re-piping. I called the building dept to find out about a permit. I was told that I must submit an isometric drawing so that the inspector will know what fixtures were involved. Four full bath, kitchen, laundry and hose bibs and I bet that the inspector wouldn't get past the first floor. I built a 6' retaining wall and called for a footing inspection. When the inspector showed up I was using a shop-vac to get the loose soil. The inspector remarked that he had never seen anyone do that and stated that I am so conscientious that he didn't need to bother with an inspection....he signed the card and left without looking.
The AHJ did away with paper. Inspectors have iPads in which they are to enter corrections. Well they are not all up to speed with that. One inspector writes the corrections on floors and walls. Following behind him is an Easter egg hunt.
It is actually an improvement over the paper correction slips.
You really don't know the depth and breath of the malfeasance that exists in the building code enforcement community. It is just bizarre.
I met yesterday with a friend that is trying to obtain a permit for a carport. It has taken six months so far and the planner is clueless. The contractor had a list of questions regarding an ADU that he is building. He had inspection for footing and under-slab plumbing that amounted to a few minutes. He wasn't sure that the inspector looked at it and the inspector would not answer any questions....so I did.
I plan on re-piping. I called the building dept to find out about a permit. I was told that I must submit an isometric drawing so that the inspector will know what fixtures were involved. Four full bath, kitchen, laundry and hose bibs and I bet that the inspector wouldn't get past the first floor. I built a 6' retaining wall and called for a footing inspection. When the inspector showed up I was using a shop-vac to get the loose soil. The inspector remarked that he had never seen anyone do that and stated that I am so conscientious that he didn't need to bother with an inspection....he signed the card and left without looking.
The AHJ did away with paper. Inspectors have iPads in which they are to enter corrections. Well they are not all up to speed with that. One inspector writes the corrections on floors and walls. Following behind him is an Easter egg hunt.
It is actually an improvement over the paper correction slips.
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fatboy
Administrator
That correction notice is flippen ridiculous! The contractor should scream, how about something I can read. I would have an inspector on the carpet in front of me.
tmurray
SAWHORSE
We write corrections in an ipad, but I also bring along a black sharpie to write on areas to help contractors find where they need to do a repair on framing or vapour barrier inspections. Just an arrow or circle to help them find what I am talking about.
It seems easier than trying to describe where an issue is sometimes and contractors are not always on site to meet us.
It seems easier than trying to describe where an issue is sometimes and contractors are not always on site to meet us.
Inspector Gift
SAWHORSE
RED FLUORESCENT paint works great for some projects!
There was an inspector that used orange paint. He painted the floors with arrows. There was an upset contractor because the inspector made arrows on the garage slab. Big orange arrows.
I took pictures. A contractor would call me and I could direct him to the exact spot. More than one had to wonder how I knew so much detail.
I used spray paint on some OSB floor sheeting to indicate that there was no end nailing on the subfloor, the framer appreciated it but I was worried about the contractor blowing up! Bottom line, the ends were nailed. I think the yard marking paint is more of a powder base and rubs off.
Anyone else use paint to mark rough-in framing discrepancies?
Anyone else use paint to mark rough-in framing discrepancies?
No. But I did ask for a paint ball gun to mark hard to reach places. Request denied...
mtlogcabin
SAWHORSE
Yes we use a Blue color paint for framing. Orange, Red or Yellow are never used. I have had many owners call upset that there is something major wrong with the construction of their house. Then I spend time explaining to the owner that there is a minor correction that needs to be done, usually missed fasteners in the sheathing or hangers and the paint is there to aid the contractor in identifying where the corrections is and it provides proof when he sends a photo of the correction for the file. Since we went to Blue paint I don't get the questions from the owner anymore
my250r11
REGISTERED
Sometimes paint/lumber crayon on the framing itself or the osb. I use paint on roof inspection for protruding nails or shiners. This stopped from me getting the call the roofer couldn't find it as well as I know the shingle gets replaced.
steveray
SAWHORSE
The contractor decided to install a backwater valve for the building sewer of an ADU. A backwater valve is not required for this property. The contractor has dealt with an inspector that required a backwater valve on every ADU. The picture is an example of how he has passed inspection, ...every time. He was not aware that the valve shall be flat with no slope. He did not know that the valve shall be accessible. There has never been a tag placed at the cleanouts warning of a backwater valve.
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